Are the majority of male fans of TOS chauvinists?

[RAMA]

I ask this because compared to other show threads, when topics of gender come up, the male posters tend to like things status quo--meaning they like how women were portrayed in TOS--or their attitudes seem backwards when they see how women are portrayed in the latter ST shows. Yes, despite what a lot of female fans say, they're totally fine how things are..."its really too bad that ST had to change....it would all have been perfect if they kept those whiz bang colors and smooth lines on starships and the women weren't allowed to be captains, and they all made good multicolored girlfriends for Kirk..." Sometimes I'm really sad to be a TOS fan...

RAMA

 

[number6]

I am sad to be a fan for additional reasons, but I tend to agree with your assessment..

I would like to think that I am not nearly as chauvanistic as that.

 

[T'Bonz]

Plenty of male fans are chauvanist. They go gaga over a pair of bloomers under a dress or a peek of something as if they were 13 and never get laid. I sometimes read the comments and want to barf. Truly. I thought wanting to see someone's underpants was junior high stuff. *shrug*

I don't think most want to see the women as subservient and "lesser" though. Then again, it might be one of those things like racism, where some pay lip service to the Right Sentiments, but feel differently inside.

 

[number6]

That was beautiful, toughtful and powerful, TBonz


Can I see your tits?

 

[mrsspock]

I don't know if they are but I would hope not.

I have no problem with the men's role in TOS, they were macho sure, but they were more respectful to women, protected them and generally took the lead and RESPONSIBILITY....I think women's lib have hurt women in alot of ways,(but has surely made things better in some ways as well) it has made some women equate being independent with being masculine. just my humble opinion.

 

[number6]

mrsspock said:
I don't know if they are but I would hope not.

I have no problem with the men's role in TOS, they were macho sure, but they were more respectful to women, protected them and generally took the lead and RESPONSIBILITY....I think women's lib have hurt women in alot of ways,(but has surely made things better in some ways as well) it has made some women equate being independent with being masculine. just my humble opinion.

Indeed. I think sexism isn't limited to male members. In fact one thread in the VOY forum suggested that Janeway would have been more powerful and effective if she had been a lesbian. Sexuality should have nothing to do with how effective a leader should be or how strong a character is.

Maybe that's just me.

 

[mrsspock]

the right man for any woman would not underrate her....if he does, it's not just because he's a man, but because you have allowed him to think he's better than you....there is power in choice.

I never say any episodes that would have conveyed to me that the actor or Mr. Rodenberry saw women in a lesser or demeaning way.....than I can think of anyway.

 

[VulcanJedi]

Yes. Instead of denying it, I should admit a certain amount of comfort with the old time attitudes. But, when I recently watched the first episode I cringed at their silly, "Oh no! There's a woman on board!" and the way Kirk treats Rand in Mudd's women is embarrassing. So, I think there is a streak of Gloria Steinem in me.

But, I think PC is another issue. The truth is today, men or young men are more impolite, more sexist, more crude and more objectifying than ever. So, to pretend all that is just gone is part of what makes new trek unbelievable. New BSG I think is less PC and more believable in it's portrayal of the sexes than new Trek.

 

[Brutal Strudel]

I love the miniskirts but hate:

The sexist "woman on the bridge," "female yeoman" horseshit.

The requisite female guest star--McGivers, Palamas, The Romulan Commander fron TEI--whose professional judgement is entirely subordinate to the status of her tingle toggle. (And those are all examples from good epiosdes.)

"Turnabout Intruder," no matter what the retconning revisionists say.

Personally, I see no real harm in enjoying the beauty of TOS's women since I have observed that most women are just as superficial when it comes to admiring men.

 

[Lord Garth]

I think all the Star Trek series are sexist, to one degree or another. It's the new Battlestar Galactica that has the right balance.

Star Trek is just a product of its time. All the attitudes displayed in the various series are in tune with whatever was happening when they were made.

The new Battlestar Galactica, OTOH, has generally been what I estimate to be five years ahead.

 

[mrsspock]

that's interesting....but that goes to my theory that women have to be masculine in order to be considered equal...and I use the character as Starbuck here....everything is a give and take....there has to be balance....regardless of gender.

 

[Lord Garth]

^ Starbuck is the only main female character who's particularly masculine. None of the rest are, including Roslin who holds the highest position.

There are going to be women who are more "masculine" and men who are more "feminine".

 

[VulcanJedi]

mrsspock said:
that's interesting....but that goes to my theory that women have to be masculine in order to be considered equal...and I use the character as Starbuck here....everything is a give and take....there has to be balance....regardless of gender.

My theory (I wonder if any sci-fi authors have ever explored this?) is that relationship evolution can devolve or regress of whatever or just go back. Anyone ever thought of that? 100 years from now all women stay home and cook and men seek super machoness once again? Ever thought of that? What makes people so sure we've "arrived?" Perhaps we are going backwards? Maybe forcing women to be like men is the true barbarity?

Or not.

 

[mrsspock]

Lord Garth said:
^ Starbuck is the only main female character who's particularly masculine. None of the rest are, including Roslin who holds the highest position.

There are going to be women who are more "masculine" and men who are more "feminine".

agreed. but that is not what makes them equal...is Rosilin only equal because she holds a higher ofice...OR is she equal because she's a human being and derserves the same as anyone else....in our society your more important if your rich, pretty, smart....in a truly equal world...we are all equal because we are all of the human race or not human race! LOL this has been going on since the beginning of time....social packs and all that....I'm just saying...men are men...just because they may prefer a woman who is softer or more easy going does not mean he wants less....he just want something different....but...as Spock says in Amok time....you may learn that having is not the same as wanting.....mmmmm

 

[mrsspock]

VulcanJedi said:

mrsspock said:
that's interesting....but that goes to my theory that women have to be masculine in order to be considered equal...and I use the character as Starbuck here....everything is a give and take....there has to be balance....regardless of gender.

My theory (I wonder if any sci-fi authors have ever explored this?) is that relationship evolution can devolve or regress of whatever or just go back. Anyone ever thought of that? 100 years from now all women stay home and cook and men seek super machoness once again? Ever thought of that? What makes people so sure we've "arrived?" Perhaps we are going backwards? Maybe forcing women to be like men is the true barbarity?

Or not.

that's very interesting.

 

[Lord Garth]

mrsspock said:

Lord Garth said:
^ Starbuck is the only main female character who's particularly masculine. None of the rest are, including Roslin who holds the highest position.

There are going to be women who are more "masculine" and men who are more "feminine".

agreed. but that is not what makes them equal...is Rosilin only equal because she holds a higher ofice...OR is she equal because she's a human being and derserves the same as anyone else....in our society your more important if your rich, pretty, smart....in a truly equal world...we are all equal because we are all of the human race or not human race! LOL this has been going on since the beginning of time....social packs and all that....I'm just saying...men are men...just because they may prefer a woman who is softer or more easy going does not mean he wants less....he just want something different....but...as Spock says in Amok time....you may learn that having is not the same as wanting.....mmmmm

Well, yeah. I don't blame Anders for having enough and walking off after Starbuck's "I feel like hurting someone and it might as well be you." No matter what she went through with Leoben, that's not something you say to your spouse.

 

[T'Bonz]

Number6 said:
That was beautiful, toughtful and powerful, TBonz


Can I see your tits?

Sorry, but you're not worthy.

 

[Ronald Held]

I see TOS as a period piece reflecting the mores of the time. I certainly would not want to "enhance" it to make it more in line with todays ethics.

 

[Lord Garth]

Something pertinent to add. Saying what I said earlier about the series itself, I don't think the majority of male TOS fans are chauvinists and I'm not going to go into a thread automatically assuming whoever I'm interacting with is more likely to be sexist than not.

I prefer to judge people individually and don't like the idea of making assumptions that are automatically going to put people on the defensive because of what I noticed some people said or because of what television show they happen to like. It's bad form and likely to be inaccurate unless we know what everyone thinks.

The people who are truly sexist won't say anything here. The ones who aren't will defend why they're not.

 

[sbk1234]

I think a lot of men are not as chauvinistic as they may present on the threads. (And yes, a small minority probalby are.) The computer gives us a certain amount of annonymity which some people like to exploit by saying those things we'd probably never say to someone's face.
I also do not see a contradiction between being an equalist (the term I prefer), and genuinley enjoying the female form.
Yes, I like looking at women and admiring their appearance, but I still believe in equality between genders. My wife is a very strong-willed, intelligent woman, I have some female doctors, as do my children, and I have only the highest ambitions for my daughters.
However, I think it is somewhat instinctive for us to be attracted to the opposite gender. IMHO.