Are Most Falls to the Dark Side Unbelievable According to Many?

Discussion in 'Star Wars' started by VulcanMindBlown, Mar 14, 2017.

  1. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That and the Light siders consider the Dark Side to be a corruption of the Force, of nature itself. A corruption that needs to be removed in order to restore balance to the Force. Others hold that the two have to be in balance for the universe to function. There is not definite answer to the ideology, as it seems to depend greatly on one's point of view. Those that study the Dark Side likely have their own ideas about what the universe is like, or what the Force is and what it is for. We get some of that via Palpatine and some of the other Sith Lords.
     
  2. Prax

    Prax Captain Captain

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    Exactly.

    That's why he's depicted just a good kid in the Phantom Menace. "Evil" people don't start out that way. We are all capable of doing bad things. I'm tempted to use the "H" word here. Even H_______ was once a young innocent boy.

    As for the light/dark, I was speaking rhetorically. The Force is just the Force. The Jedi use it(or let it use them?) for selfless causes. They seek peace and justice, and a natural harmony.

    The Sith use this same force for selfish gain and power. I'd say evil too, as they have to commit some deplorable murderous betrayal to be initiated into their order, like murder their family. If they have a role in some grand cosmic plan, it's to shake things up every once in a while. It seems that the Jedi and Republic have been in power, maintaining a relatively free and peaceful galaxy for all of recorded (SW) history.
     
  3. Prax

    Prax Captain Captain

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    Well, we often hear about the Jedi following "the will of the Force" or "trusting in the Force." If this is the case, then the Force serves the same purpose the Jedi do. In contrast, we hear in Plagueis and I'm sure many other places, that the Sith make the force their slave, and bend "it's will" to their own. If this is true, then what the Sith are doing is unnatural, and not a necessary component in some cosmic scheme of balance.

    The movies never mention a "light side." I know there's that Clone Wars episode, but it seems at odds.
     
  4. LJones41

    LJones41 Captain Captain

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    Yes, I realize that you're speaking rhetorically. Every person who uses the "light" and "dark" phrases are speaking rhetorically. I'm just getting tired of so many people speaking "rhetorically" all of the time . . . to the point that they hardly ever use "good" and "evil" anymore. And since both "light" and "dark" can be metaphors for either good or evil, I do not see the point in only using "dark" for evil and "light" for good.

    Personally, I believe that both the Jedi and the Sith had viewed the Force in extreme ways. Neither organization seemed capable of viewing or approaching the Force in a balanced manner.
     
  5. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    George Lucas made clear that it did, while the whole idea of balance between the sides is premised on the idea that the sides exist to begin with.

    Likewise, 'Ashla' and 'Bogan' are just energy fields as well, parts of the larger energy field. There is no rule that says the Force cannot be subdivided; after all, we are told that the Force breaks down into the living Force and the Cosmic Force.

    No, the lightsiders do not believe that. That is a belief held by the fan base. In the films the Jedi never say that their goal is to destroy the dark side or that removing the dark side restores balance to the Force; rather, they stress that the removal of the Sith is what is necessary. All light side, no dark side is not balance and nothing we see from the Jedi in the films leads us to believe otherwise.

    Every thing is itself. But is X=X a mathematically interesting statement? The real question is, why can't we break down X into components?

    They do. They call it the "good side" in TESB and ROTJ. At some point the nomenclature changed and people started calling it the light side. A name change does not yield prior nonexistence.

    It's not. There's a reason why a yin-yang symbol appears in AOTC. Another Clone Wars episode had the fortune cookie "Without darkness there can be no light." There's also Rebels, in which it is said that
    the Jedi wield Ashla and the Sith wield Bogan
    , and several new-canon sources.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
  6. VulcanMindBlown

    VulcanMindBlown Commander Red Shirt

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    This conversation is getting off topic, but I digress.

    Sometimes the Jedi have to use force... is that harrassing the Dark Side maybe???

    P.S. Is there any books on the solid nature of the Force and its philosophy???? I know that there is the Jedi Path, The Essential Guide to the Force and the Book of the Sith (which I haven't read at all.)
     
  7. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    This is one of the reasons that I like the ROTS novel. It unpacks the concept of light and dark in very interesting and personal ways, especially how it relates to how each side views the nature of the Force. Count Dooku describes it as making him the center of the universe in terms of dark side power, while Obi-Wan relies more of being were the Force moves him to be.

    Obviously this likely a non-canon explanation, but it gives some great visuals to some of the more abstract concepts of the Force. I think the Bendu is also a nice addition to the lore.

    You digress over the digression?

    Regardless, I don't believe there are any current canon books on the nature of the Force. There is the Jedi Path, the Book of the Sith, as well as one of the Jedi vs. Sith: Essential Guide to the Force.
     
  8. Prax

    Prax Captain Captain

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    The Novelization of Episode 3 is about as "canon" as it gets. :techman:
     
  9. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    One would think, but that isn't always the case for all. ;)

    I really wish I could find some good visuals of the descriptions of Dooku and Obi-Wan's perspective and experience of the Force from that novel. It really presents it in such a wonderful way.
     
  10. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'd be happy to get a visually satisfying version of the duel near the opening of the novel. It reads out very well between Dooku, Skywalker, and Kenobi.
     
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  11. Prax

    Prax Captain Captain

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    Do you mean when Dooku is mulling over how he will "perform" when Obi-Wan and Anakin are arrive on the ship to save Palpatine?
     
  12. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I would very much like that. Very much.
    It's part of that, but it is more of the description of how Dooku perceives himself when he draws in the Dark Side power feeling the spin of the galaxy.
     
  13. Prax

    Prax Captain Captain

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    I think I know the part you're talking about. I like getting into Dooku's head in general. He's easily one of the most interesting characters in the book. He has this weird admiration for Kenobi, and can't understand what Palpatine sees in Anakin. He has all these grand plans for after the war and has no conception that there's a possibility of being beaten by them...or betrayed. Then at the last moment he realizes "Treachery is the way of the Sith."

    Also the separatist leadership. They all Hate each other. Grievous hates Nute Gunray. Dooku hates Grievous and Nute Gunray. He's disgusted by them. He's disgusted by Anakin for using a prosthetic arm...and so on.
     
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  14. Ithekro

    Ithekro Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I was thinking of the actual fight itself with the stances and tricks to go with them. A visual take on Dooku and later Anakin's inner thought on the fight as it was happening. Dooku starts out very confident in these beginners being nothing to worry about. Even goading Kenobi again about "surely you can do better", only got Kenobi to smile, quip, and leap away to present Skywalker sporting his more Vader-like power slashes and Kenobi turning into the Defensive god of lightsabers right in front of Dooku. Ending with him having "a very bad feeling about this".

    But also the beginning of the novel. The description of the Clone Wars as seen by the civilians of the Republic. And the reaction of the children to the battle over Coruscant. The children that are the believers in the Jedi even as the adults have lost faith. That Skywalker-Kenobi will be there.
     
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  15. Set Harth

    Set Harth Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Novelizations are in a sketchy area when it comes to canonicity. A novelization will tend to diverge from the film in certain ways. It's been said that novelizations are canon insofar as they align with the films.

    That said, the ROTS novelization does have Palpatine asking the Force what Anakin's Sith name should be and the dark side answering. :techman:
     
  16. Hound of UIster

    Hound of UIster Vice Admiral Admiral

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    And this very much falls in line how Chirrut's use of the Force worked in Rogue One.
     
  17. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Indeed, yes. I like Dooku's sudden realization that he's been played and becomes more desperate. There is a lot of visual language that Stover works in terms of symbolism, and Dooku's attitude overall. How he is very much above them, and considers himself their superior in every way.

    I agree that it also would have been nice to see the more civilian attitude that people are feeling about the Jedi and the war itself.

    Of course, that could have been Palpatine's interpretation of it ;)
    It is one of the things that I liked about his character.
     
  18. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    As a rule, ideas and scenes added to novelizations are not considered canonical and are not acknowledged by subsequent canon. Indeed, novelizations are often based on early script drafts and differ from the final film. Here are some Tor.com articles discussing the ways the Star Wars novelizations differ from the movies (although in the case of the prequels, the books are described as much better and more fleshed out):

    http://www.tor.com/2013/01/24/weird...ar-wars-movie-and-its-preceding-novelization/
    http://www.tor.com/2015/12/03/do-no...-back-novelization-it-will-only-make-you-sad/
    http://www.tor.com/2015/12/10/the-s...tion-gave-us-the-vague-shape-of-the-prequels/
    http://www.tor.com/2015/11/05/the-s...n-explains-all-the-things-the-movie-does-not/
    http://www.tor.com/2015/11/12/the-s...ually-makes-you-feel-sorry-for-jar-jar-binks/
    http://www.tor.com/2015/11/19/real-...equels-and-read-the-episode-iii-novelization/
     
  19. Prax

    Prax Captain Captain

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    Canon was once a hierarchy, with Lucas' Films, screenplays, notes, statements, and the film's novelizations at the very top.

    Under Disney, All books post 2014 are fully canon, including the episode 7 novelization.

    As far as pre 2014 books go, the RotS Novelization is about as canon as you can get, As Lucas was so heavily involved in personally editing it. Matthew Stover stated in 2006:

    "I received from LFL a Word document of Revenge of the Sith with Mr Lucas' edits, which was distinct from the edits I'd already gotten from Sue Rostoni and Howard Roffman and the rest of the LFL crew, and this document was edited in such a detailed fashion that even individual words had been struck off and his preferred replacements inserted, as well as some passages wholly excised and some dialogue replaced with the dialogue from the screenplay. If that's not line-editing, I don't know what is.

    What's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone.

    Period."
     
  20. fireproof78

    fireproof78 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Similarly, the ROTS video game had an early draft that featured several elements found in Stover's novel that would be cut from the film itself. One of the game designers said he got to see show preliminary footage of the Dooku duel that was closer to the book that ended up on the cutting room floor.

    So, Lucas can change his mind about anything then.