Spoilers Are Anakin and Darth Vader really the same person?
- Thread starter Unimatrix Q
- Start date
But can one become two?
When Anakin first hears that voice that is not his own, he may very well have been taken with what Robert J. Lifton called “Doubling:”
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/762754-in-sum-doubling-is-the-psychological-means-by-which-one
But it may have gone deeper…Anakin becoming Wesker to Vader’s Scarface…to invoke Batman’s ventriloquist.
Anakin is really what Picard called Gul Madred…a little boy surrounded by the uncaring in his mind.
Vader is competence embodied.
Maybe Palpatine was his puppet.
When Anakin “ascends,” what may have been left behind in the armor?
I picture this:
https://www.writeups.org/chronicles-of-riddick-lord-marshal-colm-feore/
When Anakin first hears that voice that is not his own, he may very well have been taken with what Robert J. Lifton called “Doubling:”
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/762754-in-sum-doubling-is-the-psychological-means-by-which-one
But it may have gone deeper…Anakin becoming Wesker to Vader’s Scarface…to invoke Batman’s ventriloquist.
Anakin is really what Picard called Gul Madred…a little boy surrounded by the uncaring in his mind.
Vader is competence embodied.
Maybe Palpatine was his puppet.
When Anakin “ascends,” what may have been left behind in the armor?
I picture this:
https://www.writeups.org/chronicles-of-riddick-lord-marshal-colm-feore/
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You mean like the body/mind succumbing to evil while the soul/luminous being of the Chosen One gets suppressed by the Dark Side? So that the times when Anakin seems to peak out from Darth Vader, it feels like something is there, but then crushed (the sad look in his eyes what he sees Ahsoka, only to fall away to "Than you will die".
I never came away with that impression. I'm sorry, but I didn't. To me, he only seemed surprised by Obi-Wan's doubts. The only time I can recall Mace being openly hostile or doubtful about the prophecy was in "Revenge of the Sith". However, I never understood why it was so important to a lot of fans there be this hostile relationship between Anakin and Mace. Yes, the latter's hostility was apparent in "Revenge of the Sith". But Yoda's attitude wasn't any better. And I do recall Yoda being the last Council member to accept Anakin into the Order. He had been pretty vehement about Obi-Wan training Anakin, yet he never bothered to accept the position himself. And I've never heard Yoda fully accept the Chosen One prophecy, let alone accept that Anakin was the Chosen One. Yet, fans never comment on this. Instead, they constantly push the idea of a hostile situation between Mace and Anakin. Why is it so important to many fans that those two have consistently dislike each other?
And why are so many trying to complicate or compartmentalize Anakin's character? He was Anakin Skywalker aka Darth Vader - Tatooine slave boy, Jedi padawan, Jedi Knight, Sith Lord/apprentice and Force ghost. All of those identities are part of one person. Identities that switch due to change in situation or a decision in changing one's moral path. What is this need to compartmentalize Anakin? And what is this need to paint Anakin as someone who has certain traits that made him prone to evil, when just about anyone is prone to evil, given a situation in life or what emotional buttons are pushed?
Discomfort.
You know, I have asked questions about this need to compartmentalize Anakin's character for years. You're the first person to respond with a frank answer.
Just how I see it. Few people like the idea of acknowledging the of individual human's capacity for evil so they create a distance between us and those who do horrible things. It's uncomfortable to regard our own capacity, if we think about it at all. Few people have that reflective nature. Easier to distract and move on.
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Someone just watched the 6th Day.
They are the same person unlike his father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate.
My mind just keeps going back to that scene between father and son in Return of the Jedi...
Luke: "Come with me."
Vader: "Obi-Wan once thought as you do. You don't know the power of the Dark Side! I must obey my master."
Luke: "I will not turn, and you'll be forced to kill me."
Vader: "If that is your destiny."
Luke: "Search your feelings, father - you can't do this! I feel the conflict within you; let go of your hate!"
Vader: "It is...too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now."
Luke: "Then my father is truly dead."
That entire exchange remains so monumentally powerful, even after 41 years. Major props to both Mark Hamill and the late David Prowse, who had to put so much effort into his mannerisms, knowing by then his voice would be replaced again.
Luke: "Come with me."
Vader: "Obi-Wan once thought as you do. You don't know the power of the Dark Side! I must obey my master."
Luke: "I will not turn, and you'll be forced to kill me."
Vader: "If that is your destiny."
Luke: "Search your feelings, father - you can't do this! I feel the conflict within you; let go of your hate!"
Vader: "It is...too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now."
Luke: "Then my father is truly dead."
That entire exchange remains so monumentally powerful, even after 41 years. Major props to both Mark Hamill and the late David Prowse, who had to put so much effort into his mannerisms, knowing by then his voice would be replaced again.
While the two literal Anakins theory is a bit silly, this discussion does highlight my issue with Anakin's turn into Darth Vader and with the Dark Side in general. When it was just a story Obi-Wan told Luke, it was believable, we don't know the full story about what happened or why Anakin made the decisions that he did. Once we saw it for ourselves in Revenge of the Sith... it's a bit harder to believe. Anakin was certainly rather dour (a trait that many fans criticize Hayden Christensen's performance for, but it actually made it more believable he'd turn evil), but for him to turn on a dime from conflicted over the Jedi's role in the war but wanting to do the right thing to committing mass genocide of his friends and coworkers is rather sudden, but those films weren't exactly tightly written so I can live with it. The Clone Wars show though, made this turn even more sudden. Anakin is very likable in that show and proven to be a popular commander who, again, had his flaws and doubts, but if he were any other character would never commit genocide of the Jedi the way it was shown in Episode III.
Add to it the Emperor's discussions with Luke about the temptation of the Dark Side, and it does raise the possibility that the Dark Side is some sort of mind control in a way. It wasn't the Anakin we know who did these evil acts, instead in a moment of weakness the Dark Side gestures vaguely corrupted him to do the Emperor's bidding. It's the same problem the franchise had with the clones in the Clone Wars show. In the films they were (literally) a faceless army whose betrayal was shocking but not terribly inconsistent. After audiences got to know the clones personally over the course of several seasons, their uniform, unquestioning betrayal of the Jedi wasn't believable, so they introduce the idea of mass mind control via those implanted chips. It wasn't the clones we know who did those evil acts, it was the Emperor controlling them.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a terrible idea to introduce (some would say retcon) this to Darth Vader, but I'm willing to bet that within the next few years Disney slowly introduces the idea of Dark Side control to explain away the disconnect between dashing Jedi hero Anakin Skywalker and authoritarian mass murder Darth Vader. The Dark Side won't represent fighting against your base instincts and temptations, it will be this external drive that you can't resist once you let it in. Anakin didn't do all those horrible things, it was a Vader persona who did it all, while Anakin was trapped in a mind prison or some such.
Add to it the Emperor's discussions with Luke about the temptation of the Dark Side, and it does raise the possibility that the Dark Side is some sort of mind control in a way. It wasn't the Anakin we know who did these evil acts, instead in a moment of weakness the Dark Side gestures vaguely corrupted him to do the Emperor's bidding. It's the same problem the franchise had with the clones in the Clone Wars show. In the films they were (literally) a faceless army whose betrayal was shocking but not terribly inconsistent. After audiences got to know the clones personally over the course of several seasons, their uniform, unquestioning betrayal of the Jedi wasn't believable, so they introduce the idea of mass mind control via those implanted chips. It wasn't the clones we know who did those evil acts, it was the Emperor controlling them.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's a terrible idea to introduce (some would say retcon) this to Darth Vader, but I'm willing to bet that within the next few years Disney slowly introduces the idea of Dark Side control to explain away the disconnect between dashing Jedi hero Anakin Skywalker and authoritarian mass murder Darth Vader. The Dark Side won't represent fighting against your base instincts and temptations, it will be this external drive that you can't resist once you let it in. Anakin didn't do all those horrible things, it was a Vader persona who did it all, while Anakin was trapped in a mind prison or some such.
