Archons question

[22 Stars]

In RotA, we jump into the action and Sulu and O'Neil's scouting party has been discovered.

Sulu is beamed up (absorbed), and tells Kirk and group they are not of the body, 'They knew we were Archons' and chucks some clothes saying 'these are the clothes they wear'... Do we know what he is going on about?

Are these examples of the proper period clothes they wear on the planet, as opposed to the slightly anachronistic outfits Sulu and O'Neil are wearing in the teaser which led them to be discovered. I'm not so sure!

 

[Warped9]

In RotA, we jump into the action and Sulu and O'Neil's scouting party has been discovered.

Sulu is beamed up (absorbed), and tells Kirk and group they are not of the body, 'They knew we were Archons' and chucks some clothes saying 'these are the clothes they wear'... Do we know what he is going on about?

Are these examples of the proper period clothes they wear on the planet, as opposed to the slightly anachronistic outfits Sulu and O'Neil are wearing in the teaser which led them to be discovered. I'm not so sure!

The whole point of the teaser was to pique your interest. You're meant to be asking, "Hey, what's going on?" Then you stick with the episode to find out what Sulu was talking about.

The period dress they wore on the planet did seem to be an odd mixture of 19th century Earth styles. And being an alien world I wouldn't expect them to be following our historical fashion trends exactly.

 

[22 Stars]

Thanks Warped9, I know, just had my wife insisting it was the 18th to 19th century clothes difference which must have exposed Sulu and O'Neil, and in 50 years I never really considered that to be the case.

Was wondering if anyone had a production script that might reveal a clearer intention to the scene.

 

[Warped9]

Well, you can check this site for possible additional info: http://www.orionpressfanzines.com/articles/return_of_the_archons.htm

Sir Rhosis has an excellent amount of interesting info on TOS scripts and the changes they went through.

 

[22 Stars]

Very nice, looking forward to the extensive book series documenting TOS production as well!

Well it looks like the wife wins, this makes it very clear that Lindstrom screwed up, sent them down in the wrong era garb, and they were exposed as Archons because of it.

Thanks! And I hang my head in #trekshame...

 

[Warped9]

Very nice, looking forward to the extensive book series documenting TOS production as well!

Well it looks like the wife wins, this makes it very clear that Lindstrom screwed up, sent them down in the wrong era garb, and they were exposed as Archons because of it.

Thanks! And I hang my head in #trekshame...

While thats possible it's equally possible that Sulu and O'Neil were asking questions (much like Kirk and company would later) that set off suspicions.

 

[22 Stars]

Very nice, looking forward to the extensive book series documenting TOS production as well!

Well it looks like the wife wins, this makes it very clear that Lindstrom screwed up, sent them down in the wrong era garb, and they were exposed as Archons because of it.

Thanks! And I hang my head in #trekshame...

While thats possible it's equally possible that Sulu and O'Neil were asking questions (much like Kirk and company would later) that set off suspicions.

Oh sure, whatever the particulars, their outfits sure didn't help and were a noted liability. Sulu doesn't come back saying 'we should have kept our mouths shut!!', or 'we were asking questions when discovered!!'... He singles out the clothes emphatically when going on about them being exposed as Archons.

Can't believe I never 'absorbed' the true intent of this scene before!

 

[Warped9]

Very nice, looking forward to the extensive book series documenting TOS production as well!

Well it looks like the wife wins, this makes it very clear that Lindstrom screwed up, sent them down in the wrong era garb, and they were exposed as Archons because of it.

Thanks! And I hang my head in #trekshame...

While thats possible it's equally possible that Sulu and O'Neil were asking questions (much like Kirk and company would later) that set off suspicions.

Oh sure, whatever the particulars, their outfits sure didn't help and were a noted liability. Sulu doesn't come back saying 'we should have kept our mouths shut!!', or 'we were asking questions when discovered!!'... He singles out the clothes emphatically when going on about them being exposed as Archons.

Can't believe I never 'absorbed' the true intent of this scene before!

Funny, I always thought Sulu was tossing his own uniform at Kirk when he starts raving in the transporter room. Certainly a Stafleet uniform would not be anything like the clothes worn planetside.

 

[22 Stars]

While thats possible it's equally possible that Sulu and O'Neil were asking questions (much like Kirk and company would later) that set off suspicions.

Oh sure, whatever the particulars, their outfits sure didn't help and were a noted liability. Sulu doesn't come back saying 'we should have kept our mouths shut!!', or 'we were asking questions when discovered!!'... He singles out the clothes emphatically when going on about them being exposed as Archons.

Can't believe I never 'absorbed' the true intent of this scene before!

Funny, I always thought Sulu was tossing his own uniform at Kirk when he starts raving in the transporter room. Certainly a Starfleet uniform would not be anything like the clothes worn planetside.

Me too! Totally thought it was his uniform. I even ran the bluray in slow motion, and that sure isn't Sulu's uniform upon further review.

I think my wife seeing the scene with fresh eyes, helped in this case. I am guilty of just 'remembering' the scene as I always thought it was, instead of actually watching it.

 

[Warped9]

Cool. After more than forty years and I'm still learning new things about this show.

 

[Praetor Baldric]

I always thought Sulu was making reference to the uniform being worn by the crewman to whom Sulu threw his own period clothes as the "clothes that the Archons wear." In other words, the clothes Sulu is referring to as being those of the Archons are the ones the crewman is wearing, Sulu just happens to threw a piece of his own clothing at the other's uniform as a way of emphasizing that he (now absorbed) is among Archons himself. He therefore accuses those in the transporter room of being Archons and disgustedly throws clothes at them (seeing as how no rocks or sticks were available).

 

[Warped9]

I always thought Sulu was making reference to the uniform being worn by the crewman to whom Sulu threw his own period clothes as the "clothes that the Archons wear." In other words, the clothes Sulu is referring to as being those of the Archons are the ones the crewman is wearing, Sulu just happens to threw a piece of his own clothing at the other's uniform as a way of emphasizing that he (now absorbed) is among Archons himself. He therefore accuses those in the transporter room of being Archons and disgustedly throws clothes at them (seeing as how no rocks or sticks were available).

Thats's how I originally understood it.

 

[HarryM]

If you watch it, it seems to me that Sulu probably stole some local clothing, maybe why they were running, after realizing they stood out in their "colonial" attire. He is fully clothed in vest, long coat, etc, so the bundle in his hands must be some different (correct) clothing. When he gets back he throws the bundle at Lindstrom.

SULU: You, you did it. They knew we were Archons. These are the clothes they wear, not these. (throws bundle at Lindstrom).

"they" means the inhabitants, not the Archons.

 

[Praetor Baldric]

Was Lindstrom responsible for the clothing choice? Who was he supposed to be? He seems too good-looking to be a secondary character and he has quite an active role in this ep, but I am not sure why he was even part of the landing party. Were some scenes with him cut from the original script? Was he intended to be a regular?

 

[Timo]

It does seem that Lindstrom was the go-to man for the parallelohistorical or sociological aspects of the mission - in the landing party, Kirk asks him to analyze those aspects of the local existence. It would make sense for him to be in charge of the camouflage, then, and to stand by at the transporter room during the initial scouting mission. And he'd be the essential specialist in the landing party...

...It just somewhat confuses the issue that he's a hunk rather than a babe, like most "essential specialists" in landing parties. I don't think he was in need of any extra dialogue - and he certainly wasn't gonna be a regular when the ending is the same as with Lieutenant Bailey, that is, the character is left behind.

As for the original question, I, too, think the original guess was the correct one: O'Neil and Sulu somehow obtained samples of the sort of clothing the locals really wear, but were unable to slip into those before being captured, and the still half-assimilated Sulu is accusing Lindstrom of screwing up and causing the capture.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Commishsleer]

The James Blish version has Sulu throwing his uniform at Lindstrom.

According to the novelisation Sulu was sent down in his uniform and was recognised as an Archon because of it. He blamed Lindstrom.

 

[Praetor Baldric]

It does seem that Lindstrom was the go-to man for the parallelohistorical or sociological aspects of the mission - in the landing party, Kirk asks him to analyze those aspects of the local existence. It would make sense for him to be in charge of the camouflage, then, and to stand by at the transporter room during the initial scouting mission. And he'd be the essential specialist in the landing party...

...It just somewhat confuses the issue that he's a hunk rather than a babe, like most "essential specialists" in landing parties. I don't think he was in need of any extra dialogue - and he certainly wasn't gonna be a regular when the ending is the same as with Lieutenant Bailey, that is, the character is left behind.

As for the original question, I, too, think the original guess was the correct one: O'Neil and Sulu somehow obtained samples of the sort of clothing the locals really wear, but were unable to slip into those before being captured, and the still half-assimilated Sulu is accusing Lindstrom of screwing up and causing the capture.

Timo Saloniemi

Works for me!

 

[Christopher]

If you watch it, it seems to me that Sulu probably stole some local clothing, maybe why they were running, after realizing they stood out in their "colonial" attire. He is fully clothed in vest, long coat, etc, so the bundle in his hands must be some different (correct) clothing. When he gets back he throws the bundle at Lindstrom.

SULU: You, you did it. They knew we were Archons. These are the clothes they wear, not these. (throws bundle at Lindstrom).

"they" means the inhabitants, not the Archons.

Yes, exactly. If you look carefully, the outfits Sulu and O'Neil are wearing in the teaser are basically 18th-century American fashions, with frilly scarves and tricorn hats (in O'Neil's hand), whereas the garb worn by the Beta III natives is 19th-century American fashion, with vests and string ties and bowler hats. And remember, TOS embraced a theory of parallel cultural development on alien worlds in order to justify reusing historical props, costumes, etc. -- and the architecture on Beta III looked just like Earth buildings right down to a 12-hour clock with Arabic numerals. So it follows that the progression of fashion would parallel that on Earth.

So the idea, as I've always understood it, was that Lindstrom, as the sociologist, dressed Sulu and O'Neil in the clothing that the Archon's century-old reports had indicated the natives wore, in the belief that it would let them blend in with the locals undetected. But because his information was a century out of date, they were in the wrong attire for the period and thus they stood out -- the Betans immediately knew they were not of the Body, and thus came after them. (Granted, it would've been rather silly for Lindstrom to think their fashions wouldn't have changed in a century, but maybe he figured it was close enough -- he didn't anticipate the Betans' rigid conformity and immediate hostility toward outsiders.)

When Sulu says "These are the clothes they wear," he's referring to the bundle he tosses to Lindstrom -- and that intel is what clues the next landing party in to what they should be wearing instead. "Okay, based on this outfit Sulu threw us, their culture parallels 19th-century America now instead of 18th-century, so have the quartermaster issue the appropriate garb." And that's why the second landing party was able to blend in after the first failed.

 

[Push The Button]

I like "Archons", if for no other reason, because Spock hauls off and punches a guy in the face, instead of using the neck pinch on him.

But yes, that Sulu line about the clothes has confused me for about 40 years now. I'm glad that it has all been cleared up.

 

[Praetor Baldric]

Who exactly were the Archons, was that ever explained?