Approaching holidays...are we thinking the same thing?

[{ Emilia }]

Are you for real? We actually had a president, Bush Sr., say that atheists shouldn't be considered American citizens. Research shows that atheists are the most distrusted minority in America. I don't know what you've been paying attention to but it's clearly not reality.

I obviously agree and I think it's fair to say that Warped9's christmas threads tend to create some weird, twisted Reality Distortion Field and some posters end up getting trapped in it.

Admiral Ackbar does not approve.

 

[RAMA]

I haven't seen the story yet...but I saw a blurb on tv about an American solider who may not be allowed to graduate from advanced training because he refused to bow his head at the benediction. Also the American military has tests for suitability to be a soldier, and those who are atheists are rated as not fit for service, ranking low on the "spiritual" scale.

Edit: Here's the story:

​

October 19th, 2011
07:16 PM ET

By Jennifer Rizzo, CNN

Washington (CNN) - After almost being pulled from a graduation ceremony for refusal to lower the head during a benediction, a soldier is now allowed to attend but must instead stand at attention.

The 20-year-old private first class, a proclaimed atheist, is graduating from Advanced Individual Training at Fort Jackson in South Carolina on Thursday.

The soldier, who requested that CNN not give a name and gender for fear of repercussions, called the Military Religious Freedom Foundation on Wednesday after taking part in a rehearsal for the graduation.

The soldier told the watchdog group that during the rehearsal, officials ordered the soldiers to bow their heads and clasp their hands during the chaplain's benediction. As an atheist, the soldier refused to do so.

Can you imagine not wanting to give your name in case of REPRISALS for being an atheist? Wow...scary in this day and age.

RAMA

 

[Kestra]

^^ Yes, perhaps my perspective is somewhat limited. But if you want to know what real religious oppression is, try being a Christian -- or anything other than a Muslim, for that matter -- in any number of Islamic countries today.

Surely you can apply some of that perspective to the original topic here? Not being allowed to put up Christmas decorations in a store or having to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" because of corporate policy.

 

[Brian]

U.S. Soldiers Punished for Not Attending Christian Concert

On May 13, 2010, about eighty soldiers, stationed at Fort Eustis while attending a training course, were punished for opting out of attending one of these Christian concerts. The headliner at this concert was a Christian rock band called BarlowGirl, a band that describes itself as taking “an aggressive, almost warrior-like stance when it comes to spreading the gospel and serving God.”

Any doubt that this was an evangelical Christian event was cleared up by the Army post’s newspaper, the Fort Eustis Wheel, which ran an article after the concert that began:

Following the Apostle Paul’s message to the Ephesians in the Bible, Christian rock music’s edgy, all-girl band BarlowGirl brought the armor of God to the warriors and families of Fort Eustis during another installment of the Commanding General’s Spiritual Fitness Concert Series May 13 at Jacobs Theater.

The father of the three Barlow sisters who make up the band was also quoted in the article, saying, “We really believe that to be a Christian in today’s world, you have to be a warrior, and we feel very blessed and privileged that God has given us the tool to deliver His message and arm His army.”

A few days later, some of the soldiers punished for choosing not to attend this concert contacted the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF). The following is from the account sent by one of those soldiers to MRFF, detailing what transpired that night.

The week prior to the event the [unit name and NCO's name withheld] informed us of a Christian rock event that was about to take place on Thursday the 13th.

“On Thursday 13th at 1730 we were informed that instead of being dismissed for the day, the entire company (about 250 soldiers) would march as a whole to the event. Not only that, but to make sure that everyone is present we were prohibited from going back to the barracks (to eliminate the off chance that some might ‘hide’ in their rooms and not come back down).

“We were marched as a whole to chow and were instructed to reform outside the dining facility. A number of soldiers were disappointed and restless. Several of us were of different faith or belief. A couple were particularly offended (being of Muslim faith) and started considering to disobey the order.

“From the dining facility we were marched back to the company area. There was a rumor circulating that we may be given a choice later on to fall out or attend. Though it was only a rumor it was also a small hope enough to allow us to follow along a little longer before choosing to become disobedient. We were marched back to the company area. To our dismay there was still no sign of as having a choice.

“We started marching to the theater. At that point two Muslim soldiers fell out of formation on their own. Student leadership tried to convince them to fall back in and that a choice will be presented to us once we reach the theater.

“At the theater we were instructed to split in two groups; those that want to attend versus those that don’t. At that point what crossed my mind is the fact that being given an option so late in the game implies that the leadership is attempting to make a point about its intention. The ‘body language’ was suggesting that ‘we marched you here as a group to give you a clue that we really want you to attend (we tilt the table and expect you to roll in our direction), now we give you the choice to either satisfy us or disappoint us.’ A number of soldiers seemed to notice these clues and sullenly volunteered for the concert in fear of possible consequences.

“Those of us that chose not to attend (about 80, or a little less that half) were marched back to the company area. At that point the NCO issued us a punishment. We were to be on lock-down in the company (not released from duty), could not go anywhere on post (no PX, no library, etc). We were to go to strictly to the barracks and contact maintenance. If we were caught sitting in our rooms, in our beds, or having/handling electronics (cell phones, laptops, games) and doing anything other than maintenance, we would further have our weekend passes revoked and continue barracks maintenance for the entirety of the weekend. At that point the implied message was clear in my mind ‘we gave you a choice to either satisfy us or disappoint us. Since you chose to disappoint us you will now have your freedoms suspended and contact chores while the rest of your buddies are enjoying a concert.’

“At that evening, nine of us chose to pursue an EO complaint. I was surprised to find out that a couple of the most offended soldiers were actually Christian themselves (Catholic). One of them was grown as a child in Cuba and this incident enraged him particularly as it brought memories of oppression.

<more at VeteransToday.com>

.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

That's fucking appalling.

 

[I Grok Spock]

Thank god my Italian-American forebears assimilated, or you'd be subjected to their smelly restaurants on every street corner.

 

[scotpens]

You should read up on Dominionism.

I've done so. As far as I can see, Dominionism is a very loose term for a broad range of conservative Christian beliefs ranging from outright theocracy to simply asserting that we're a "Christian nation." The ones who'd like to see civil government controlled by Christians alone according to Biblical law -- the so-called Christian Reconstructionists -- are a fringe of a fringe. Like hardcore Trek geeks.

 

[Brian]

Michele Bachmann and Rick Perry have ties to Dominionism. Considering the place they've been given at the GOP debates, how do you say that's fringe of a fringe? The Dominionists are already becoming entrenched in our government.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...nd-rick-perry-s-dangerous-religious-bond.html

At any rate, the point was that you claimed that christian culture was not oppressive or overbearing, and that there’s no systematic, sanctioned, state-supported-and-directed persecution of non-christians in America. We are dangerously close to it, but you can't see it.

How do you refute the article above about the soldiers being punished for not attending a the christian concert?

 

[scotpens]

How do you refute the article above about the soldiers being punished for not attending a the christian concert?

I don't refute it. Is it part of a pattern? Is this sort of thing happening in the armed forces on a regular basis?

 

[Brian]

If half a company is being punished for choosing poorly in their religious off-duty activities, then it's not an isolated incident, the base has a culture which allows it.

And look at the acquisition costs:

These concerts aren’t just small events with local Christian bands. We’re talking about the top, nationally known, award-winning Christian artists, with headline acts costing anywhere from $30,000 to $100,000, and even many of the opening acts being in the $10,000 range.

The cost of these concerts led MRFF’s research department to start looking at some of the DoD contracts for other “spiritual fitness” events and programs, and what we found was astounding. One contract, for example, awarded to an outside consulting firm to provide “spiritual fitness” services, was for $3.5 million.

That kind of money does not get appropriated unless there is a pervasive culture in the military which encourages it. It's there. I have worked with the military for 22 years. I see it all the time.

And the christian bullying is nothing new. When my father was off serving in the Korean War, his wife at home with their baby had a breakdown. He was sent to the chaplain for counseling, presumably to discuss his options (discharge, baby given to the grandmother for care, etc.). The chaplain asked him if he had considered the fact that this happened because he doesn't attend church services.

A culture of christian dominionism and bullying is here, and it has been for a long time. It's why this nation's motto was changed from "E Pluribus Unum" to "In God We Trust" in the 1950's, and why that new motto was added to our paper money at that time. It's why the Pledge of Allegiance was also edited in the 1950's to add the words "Under God". It's why soldiers are being punished for having the wrong faith. It's why conservative candidates are today signing pledges that they will govern per the bible.

The irony is that they all claim to be Constitutionalists. But they consistently fail to understand that Freedom OF Religion also means Freedom FROM Religion.

 

[Captain Ice]

Robert and scotpens, some of your comments in this thread are skirting the trolling line.

Dial it back please.

 

[Australis]

<reads up on Dominionism in Wikipedia>

Seriously?

They can FUCK THAT RIGHT OFF!

Sick of that crap.

 

[doubleohfive]

My eyes are bleeding at even beginning to read all of that. Cliffsnotes. Investigate them.

Bah. The MTV generation. Attention span of a housefly.

Well, I do suffer from currently untreated ADHD. (Thanks a lot, healthcare policy that refuses to cover "pre-existing conditions"!) so I think I should get a little leeway on the short attention span thing.

 

[David cgc]

This sort of thing reminds me of a bit in "This American Life" about apartment Superintendants.

So can you joke around with the tenants in this building?

Not like that. No, you don't want to go there. I'm pretty friendly with some of them, but there's a line. Yeah. I tell these guys, you've got to to keep it short and sweet. Good morning. Good evening. How 'bout them Knicks? Happy holidays.

Martin's kind of new. He wanted to say, happy Hanukkah to a few people. I said, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no. No 'merry Christmas,' no 'happy Hanukkah.' It's 'happy holidays.'"

"Oh, but, uh--"

I said, "No. You're going to miss. You're going to miss. I'm telling you you're going to miss. You're going to throw one the wrong way and it's going to come back."

So, in that spirit, I hope Warped9 has a joyous Kwanzaa. I'd say "happy New Year," too, but New Year's isn't until the end of January.

 

[SmoothieX]

I think its worthwhile to note that my dad was a Jew who dressed up as Santa for the town Xmas tree lighting.

Can I even say Christmas Tree, or do I need to refer to it as Festive Flora from now on?

 

[Warped9]

A former employer of mine was Jewish and he often expressed more holiday spirit than some Christians I've known.

 

[Brian]

Several friends of mine are atheists and are more loving and compassionate than most christians I've known.

 

[RoJoHen]

Several friends of mine are atheists and are more loving and compassionate than most christians I've known.

It has been my experience that this is often true.

 

[Warped9]

Individuals make the difference. There are good folks as well as jerks from all walks of life, all nationalities and all forms of belief. No one has a monopoly on kindness, compassion and generosity or conversely on narrow mindedness or meanness of spirit.

To the topic at hand people in Canada are allowed and even encouraged to express their beliefs and their celebrations. In some measure this is a result of Canadian multiculturalism over the past forty years. And, yes, its pros and cons are often enough debated, sometimes heatedly.

In extant of that if we allow others their celebrations and how they choose to express them then why should we deny our own?

 

[Broccoli]

You want to decorate your store for Christmas. That's fine. What if someone wants to decorate your store for Hanukkah just as much as you want to do for Christmas?