Apple's Post-PC World

[Arrqh]

But as soon as I wanted to do anything a little more complex beyond the bare basics, it was actually more difficult to get it done, because it was designed for simplicity, not for power. Simplicity usually comes at a price, in my experience.
Although my idea of bare basics may be a bit different to most people. I'm the first to admit I'm not the typical computer user

I'm curious what you were having trouble with. Also, you are aware that OSX provides a unix terminal interface, right? Just for those times when you really need to get at something.

Yeah, this is something I like about OSX as well... unlike Apple's mobile products, while the interface is generally simple and easy to use, the underlying complexity is still accessible, you just have to know what you're doing. Essentially the OS allows both as extremes. Windows brings both sides closer to the middle so it's easier to get at the underlying stuff, but in return the OS isn't as intuitive to people who don't care about that aspect. I don't think either is really the "right" way... a tradeoff for simplicity of the UI is restriction on how people are able to do tasks. OSX can be pretty ridged and unfriendly sometimes to some typical users.

Their mobile products, on the other hand, don't give you access to that level of control at all which is why I will continue to stay away from them.

 

[RoJoHen]

The "bare basics" are all the vast majority of users will ever be concerned with. We are not typical users so we easily see the shortcomings!

And this is why I love my Mac. I never have to think about anything that it's doing. It works. It has never not worked. AND (and this is the key for me) it works just as well as it worked when I bought it 3 years ago.

Most computer users do not worry about adjusting features or increasing memory or doing whatever else you crazy techies do with yourselves. I have never used my Mac and thought, "Man, I wish I could do _______ with this computer." It has always done everything I have ever needed it to do.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I view Mac as a premium, basic use computer. I don't plan to use it for particularly complicated things, but I don't have that much money to spend, so I don't get a Mac. Those who want to spend more for higher quality are welcome to do so and get a Mac. Those who like to customize their computer (and probably get something better for a cheaper price) will likely get a PC, but they pay for that hassle.

 

[Flavius]

I've build thousands of machines in my time, most of them PC's but also server machines and even a few laptops, as long you read up a little about the hardware you want to use then drivers usually aren't a problem, also my experiences in help desk/repair has pointed clearly out that user error is the most common PC problem LOL...

Can you please explain the cloud to us one more time?

 

[Flavius]

Their mobile products, on the other hand, don't give you access to that level of control at all which is why I will continue to stay away from them.

So, a Macbook is not mobile? You meant mobile as in handheld and running IOS, I assume.

But I agree with you.
Laptops are not really mobile, not when compared to the real thing, and on top of that, they don't do anything really well, not when compared to a desktop, and on top of that, they die young.

So, now imagine a class of devices, far more mobile than a laptop, that does a number of things really well. The success of the iPad is no surprise to me, the extend of it maybe.

It is sort of obvious to compare Apple and BMW, since their philosophies have a lot in common: what Apple calls their post-pc bestsellers, iPod, iPhone and iPad are all studies in efficiency, modern industrial design, a perfected user experience. Interesting about the iPad is though, that Apple seems to be competing over the price as well.

 

[Arrqh]

Interesting about the iPad is though, that Apple seems to be competing over the price as well.

The price advantage largely comes from Apple being able to lock up large amounts of component stock because they know they can ship their products in large volume. Most of their components actually come from Samsung. Apple essentially took a gamble with the iPad.. a pretty safe gamble obviously... and bought up all the stock they needed to ship millions of iPads. This kept their costs down but if it hadn't sold it would have been a massive loss for Apple. Everyone else, on the other hand, is now 1 to 1.5 years behind Apple in this market segment and buying up simliar stock is much riskier for them.

That said, Apple is not pricing everyone out of the market. As I've pointed out quite a few times now, the Xoom is priced competitively and there's no reason to think that the new tablets shipping this year will be the same. I think it's likely that we'll see some tablets accepting thinner profit margins to get a foothold on the market and I suspect that it will be successful. Apple has never succeeded at keeping a market segment to themselves and there's no reason for me to believe they'll be able to do it now in the long term.

 

[Irishman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Apple builds consumer goods. I work with computers in networks, in several professional environments. Apple has made no inroads into what we do in...well, ever (we do have an iMac in the corner. No one knows where it came from or why; it's not plugged in). Now, arguably Apple's not interested in business machines, and that's fine. Nonetheless, despite the ongoing conviction of Apple enthusiasts for what seems like decades now that most people will abandon other equipment for Apple it hasn't happened and isn't happening. There will simply be lots of other manufacturers moving into whatever consumer market Apple successfully promotes, offering substantially less expensive equivalent stuff that Apple folks will insist is not as good an "experience" but which most consumers will purchase instead.

The business use case of a PC is far different from consumer use case of a PC. You live in the business world, which has its own set of rules.

In the consumer world, what Jobs said resonates with a lot of people. Those people in turn buy Apple products.

 

[Irishman]

Also, so far, price is the one thing that no one has been able to even come close to matching Apple on when it comes to tablets.

I'm not sure what you're comparing it to, but the two iPad (Samsung Galaxy, Blackberry Playbook) competitors I'm aware of are about the same price or a little cheaper than the iPad. Granted, I don't pay a lot of attention to that market segment, so maybe I'm missing something. What products did you have in mind when you wrote that?

The 3G version of the 10.1" Motorola Xoom is $799.

 

[Irishman]

There may be a segment of the population that will be fine without a real computer, but the PC doesn't get to go away because Apple says so. As others have said, there are a lot of people in the world who use their computers for more than email and the web. Apple's shiny toys don't fit the bill for actual work.

To what types of work are you referring?

 

[Irishman]

The prices I have seen for thee Motorola Xoom are significantly more than the iPad. I've seen $800 for the base Xoom, which is $300 more than the intro iPad 2 and double the intro iPad.

The PlayBook should be close to iPad prices, yes, but again, for a 7" screen compared the the 9.7" iPad.

The Xoom currently comes in Wifi+3G with 32gb of storage. The comparable iPad 2 is $730 so it doesn't cost significantly much more. There will be a wifi only 32gb Xoom in the next few weeks which will probably be priced in the $500-$600 range, competing with the 32gb wifi only iPad 2. Yes, there are cheaper iPad models but from what I've read most people buy the more expensive ones anyway.

Yes, but, where are the compelling apps or content agreements for the Xoom? The problem with every iPad competitor (save Android), is that there is no ecosystem to support it and drive continued interest in picking up the device day after day.

What they need is an app store, and tens of thousands of apps. Then they can really call themselves competitors. The problem is that Apple has a year headstart and they just came out with version 2.0 of their device. (So all that development Samsung, Motorola, etc, have been doing was to compete with an obsolete Apple iPad). The iPad 2 just sent them all back to the drawing board to scramble to develop their own response, taking resources away from what should be the most important next move (building the ecosystem like Android is)

 

[Gepard]

Woah, hey, multi-quote there. Holy cow.

 

[Irishman]

I agree that the new Tegra2 tablets for example will cost an arm and a leg (probably even moreso than the iPad2), but there are numerous other examples of tablets of previous generation that are comparable if not far better than the iPad, yet much cheaper.

But... generally speaking (and moving away from the portable market), the desktop/notebook segment is where Apple is simply NOT cost-effective (and mildly productive at best - depending on what you're doing).

Apple OS for example is not really customizable so you are forced to do things as Apple wants you to do them.
Furthermore, their hardware price-tag is virtually double (if not more) of a PC equivalent (dektop or laptop segment).
Software wise, most programs are written for Windows (as are games).

I simply cannot (and will not) justify Apple's severely inflated prices simply because they try to 'market' their junk in a pretty commercial and whatnot.

People keep saying it's 'simple' to use a Mac. Lol... newsflash: you will need time and patience to learn something new (especially if you are coming at it from a negative point of view).

I hope that numerous people realize that just because something is extremely expensive, doesn't mean it's automatically better.
The inflated prices are usually due to brand and greed of manufacturers.
Nothing more.
When you compare at how much these companies spend at making a hardware (such as a desktop, laptop, tablet, etc...) when compared to how much they profit from SELLING them... it goes something like this in Apple's (and many other big brand names) case:
They will usually sell their items for about 4x the price (if not more) they initially spent on putting them together.

Interestingly so, the new Tegra2 tablets manufacturers are doing exactly this kind of a thing as well, which is nothing more than simple greed.
If a company spends $200 for making a tablet for example, selling it for $1000 is pure and simple robbery and greed.
The actual selling value of this item shouldn't go over $300 (or $350) realistically speaking.
But hey... capitalism is far from 'fair'.
Money is all that counts in corporations eyes, and they are counting on people's stupidity and marketing to dull people into thinking it's 'great'.


I got myself a smartphone for the first time about 3 weeks ago.
The Orange San Francisco.
Costed me £110 in London of course 9on PAYG).
This little thing is very robust, has 3.5" screen, customizable, decent, and cheap (at least when compared to the specs of other smartphones).
Now, why exactly should I pay £400 for the Galaxy S that comes with a stronger cpu and slightly larger screen?

Not everything is down to brand, and while I will agree that quality plays a big part in the products you buy, numerous 'consumer grade products' have a much larger lifespan than what is originally thought (though in some cases, you cannot really exceed it even with delicate care if the manufacturer intentionally makes it flawed so it would end up 'dead' after say 2 years time).

I would love to debate you on the virtues/vices of Apple's products, but your arguments against them are based off information that is 10-15 years out of date.

 

[Irishman]

Woah, hey, multi-quote there. Holy cow.

I was in the zone, plus, noone has ever shown me how to work multiquote.

 

[Gepard]

You click "multi quote" on each post you want to quote, then click "post reply" when you're ready to write your response. It's not that hard to figure out.

You can also quote one post, reply to it, and then if you see further posts you want to address, quote them, and use the edit button to copy/paste it into your already extant post so you don't create five posts in a row. That's generally frowned upon around here.

 

[Irishman]

I agree that the new Tegra2 tablets for example will cost an arm and a leg (probably even moreso than the iPad2), but there are numerous other examples of tablets of previous generation that are comparable if not far better than the iPad, yet much cheaper.

You can agree with it all you like but it's factually incorrect. The Xoom is just slightly more expensive then the iPad. The Notion Adam, which has been shipping in small quantities since last year, is powered by a Tegra 2 and its lowest model is $375.

Um, the Notion Ink Adam is shipping already? Who has it?

I don't know. I'm nervous about a device that tries to be a master of both full-color media consumption and e-ink reading (referring to Pixel Qi's Multi-mode LCD on the Notion Ink).

 

[Irishman]

You click "multi quote" on each post you want to quote, then click "post reply" when you're ready to write your response. It's not that hard to figure out.

Oooooh, thank you!! Saves me all kinds of time.

 

[Lindley]

Laptops are not really mobile, not when compared to the real thing, and on top of that, they don't do anything really well, not when compared to a desktop, and on top of that, they die young.

Not so young. My primary computer is a MacBook Pro from 2006. I also still have a TiBook from 2002, which still works great except for being unable to play flash smoothly.

 

[Santaman]

My Compaq Contura 80486 DX 40 is from around 1996, it still works fine, as for really ancient, my IBM XT is from 1983 and works fine... I even have the original 10Mb Seagate ST412 harddrive..

 

[Irishman]

Says me, Apple can't in a billion years support the diversity in hardware the PC has, their software is the same, it lacks the diversity of the PC world, you can't custom build an Apple, you can't upgrade an Apple as easily as you can update a PC, in short its a shiny but limited world, one small enough for Apple to dictate.

That very limitation is also a strength. Less hardware diversity tends to mean more reliable drivers, after all.

I basically see Apple as the Mercedes/BMW to PCs' Chevy/Ford. Not everyone wants or needs to pay extra for the premium brand, and not everyone would see a benefit for doing so. But the premium brand doesn't need to corner the market to be a success.

This is the way Apple's marketing sells it, but really the fair comparison is like paying twice as much for your Ford because it looks like a BMW and has a BMW badge on it. Under the hood, you're still getting a Ford engine.
You're getting a premium price, but not necessarily a better computer. Apple computers look nicer, they have fantastic screens, but you've essentially got the same CPU, the same RAM, the same graphics etc. That's not saying they're selling worse computers, because they're not, but the prices are literally double of the equivalent PC. If you're willing to pay that, fine, but don't think that makes it a better machine. With a PC, I can custom build it with the best motherboard brand, the best CPU brand, the best graphics card brand, the best brand RAM, the best brand case, the best brand PSU, the best brand hard drive. THAT is premium branding, not the logo on the front of the computer.

Throw on top of that that I can barely upgrade/replace anything in it, I can barely add anything to it, it has virtually no ports on it for expansion, and it's really a no brainer for me. I don't want to spend double the price of an entire PC every time I want an upgrade. I've been running the one PC forever, and just upgrading it as I need it. Most parts are easy enough to install yourself (and most people who think this is techy nerd work has probably never seen inside a PC), and even if you want to pay someone to do it, it works out cheap.
True, this can lead to some occasional hardware problems. 99% of the bluescreens of my computer are from a soundcard with shitty drivers, a problem you won't have on a Mac because of it's limited hardware that can be tested thoroughly. But it comes at such a huge cost, it's just not worth it to me. I'd rather not encourage Apple's completely closed and restrictive practices, because it's everything that is wrong with computing today.

Apple doesn't sell specs. They sell the experience. Show me another tablet where you can have a better experience than an iPad.

 

[Arrqh]

What they need is an app store, and tens of thousands of apps. Then they can really call themselves competitors. The problem is that Apple has a year headstart and they just came out with version 2.0 of their device. (So all that development Samsung, Motorola, etc, have been doing was to compete with an obsolete Apple iPad). The iPad 2 just sent them all back to the drawing board to scramble to develop their own response, taking resources away from what should be the most important next move (building the ecosystem like Android is)

Technically, all they need is market share to be competitors. Further, the iPad2 didn't set anyone back at all: in terms of hardware the Xoom, Tab 10.1, etc are all in the same ballpark. The real problem is that there's a catch 22... there are no tablet specific Android apps because until 2 weeks ago there were no real Android tablets. Of course all the phone apps work fine on tablets, just as all iPhone apps work on an iPad. But in a year from now this won't matter any more because there will be a healthy amount of tablet apps for Android... and probably WebOS/RIM as well... and everyone else will start to undercut Apple on price. It took Android 1.5 years to go from no real phone marketshare to beating the iPhone and I see no reason why this can't happen again.

Um, the Notion Ink Adam is shipping already? Who has it?

I don't know. I'm nervous about a device that tries to be a master of both full-color media consumption and e-ink reading (referring to Pixel Qi's Multi-mode LCD on the Notion Ink).

Probably something like 10 people at this point. But there are reviews of retail hardware all over the web. Their supply issues aren't really the main point though, I was just pointing out that Tegra2 powered devices aren't going to necessarily be expensive. Actually the single most expensive component in a tablet is the LCD and touchscreen panel.

Apple doesn't sell specs. They sell the experience. Show me another tablet where you can have a better experience than an iPad.

Better? That's subjective. Equally accessible? Wait about six months. Honeycomb is almost there (Motorola obviously rushed to market before it was finalized) and the PlayBook and TouchPad all look very promising.