Anyone's opinion of NEM improve because of "Star Trek: Picard"?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by Lord Garth, Jan 6, 2021.

  1. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Admiral Admiral

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    Out of curiosity, how do you figure TMP?

    I can see how NEM could be kind of like TWOK and TUC. But other than the drydock scene at the end and Jerry Goldsmith's score, I'm not really seeing TMP. The closest I see is Riker and Troi, the stand-ins for Decker and Ilia, finally getting married.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2021
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  2. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    My opinion of NEM itself didn't improve one bit. But I can appreciate how the events of that movie fit into Picard's overall character arc, without wanting to go back and make myself re-watch NEM to remind myself of the details.

    Kor
     
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  3. Bad Robot

    Bad Robot Commander Red Shirt

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    So it's more of a texture thing, and a lot of it is unintentional. It's in the viewing experience.

    You've mentioned the drydock exterior, where already there's a subtle awareness on the part of the composer that he was bookending ST's ten-movie saga. And Decker/Ilia is one of the main elements that makes TMP seem very proto-TNG. I mentioned that the TNG characters in Nemesis feel like they're running off the S1 bible.

    Seems neither of us are heavily fond of Nemesis, though obviously there are things to appreciate in it. And I don't know where you stand with TMP. Personally I love it.

    So now imagine the irony of having to explain everything you don't like about Nemesis if it was already known you loved TMP. It's stiff, it's stilted and awkward, it's visually muted and grey. Mr Data, shut up. My oath of celibacy IS on record, Captain.

    Now imagine if Wrath of Khan were directed by TMP. Same collateral damage, same themes of mortality and sacrifice, but with the TMP uniforms, lighting, cinematography... Goldsmith as composer, the TOS characters and chemistry at their TMP stage of disfunctionality. Maybe Berman Trek's signature bubble forcefield in place of a lot of TWOK's flashy pyrotechnics, with constant reminders of said field in danger of giving out. What movie would this start to look like?

    TMP is the 'biggest' classic ST movie, but why? I mean it's mostly in the effects (and it's got almost as many as the rest of the movies put together), but also some of the sets. TMP also has some very impressive-looking (but not particularly moody) cinematography. Yet on the flip side, most of the other Trek's have at least some location work, TMP doesn't.

    Nemesis runs up against its budget in more than enough places to seem like a cheaper movie. You want the Generations-style stellar cartography and a TUC-scale Romulan Capitol but they can't deliver it. You don't get the ILM effects of Generations but you do get more of a cinematic eye than either of Frake's films are able to offer (and perhaps even more in some places than Generations cinematographer John Alonzo could provide under David Carson's directing).

    Wrath of Khan is famously said to have been managed by Paramount's TV division. Do we know when that ever stopped? If it did? Would Paramount have ever changed a management decision that seemed to be working for them? Is there any place in the remaining nine films where the production value shows a dramatic shift?

    Both TUC and NEM seem larger than their predecessors, but also cheaper. We know Paramount kept a tight financial grip on Meyer with TUC. And Berman was very much a TV producer, who in many people's opinions (definitely mine) maintained too tight a grip over his production team's creative talent. If he could do it with TV people, preferably his own network from the various shows, he would. We even got a TV score with Generations. But in what movie did Berman's influence seem at its weakest?
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
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  4. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Admiral Admiral

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    Visually, musically, and in production scale, I think TMP has yet to be equaled in Star Trek. And nothing will ever beat late-'70s model work, especially. I love the way that looks. It makes me feel like I'm really looking at something in space.

    The characterization gives you a basic idea without the depth, so you have to mentally fill in the blanks. The story is rote and takes a backseat to the spectacle, which really sells it.

    The ending when Decker and Ilia merge with V'Ger feels really special. Right along with the visuals of V'Ger ascending beyond the Universe, leaving the Enterprise shining bright, facing away from the Sun, and having saved the Earth.

    I think it had the potential to be the best Star Trek movie overall but, because of the writing and the pacing in some places, I put it in the middle. I always feel dirty for putting it in the middle.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
  5. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Admiral Admiral

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    I'd have to say Nemesis, with Stuart Baird directing. It was the first time it felt like there was some distance from the series. But, IMO, it wasn't enough.

    First Contact is my favorite because it felt like it had enough energy and everything seemed to click. And it made me buy what the characters were feeling. I was glad Lily called "bullshit", literally, on Picard's sales pitch about the 24th Century. And I'm also glad that Picard has continued down that path. It's really looking at the 24th Century warts and all, instead of pretending they don't exist.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2021
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  6. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    TMP actually did have location shooting...the scenes on Vulcan were shot on location in Yellowstone National Park.

    TSFS, on the other hand, was shot entity in-studio, with the only location shots being the Genesis planet from the end of the previous film, over which the opening credits played.

    TWOK and TUC had some very limited location stuff, but it was all second unit.
     
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  7. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

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    What I don't get is that in TMP's final cut they removed the part that shows why the probe attacked Ilia, IE because she healed Spock as shown previously when she healed Chekov. But these scenes have been removed...

    Same thing about TUC, they removed the part that explains why they gave the Klingon blood that ridiculous color!
     
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  8. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I’m not sure I’m tracking with you.
     
  9. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

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    So you've never seen the extended versions?
     
  10. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I have, but I’m missing what you’re talking about. I’m just not making the connection.

    In TUC, are you talking about the quick cut where Col. Worf says “this is not Klingon blood?”

    I’m totally lost on the TMP connection though.
     
  11. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Admiral Admiral

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    I have the Extended Cut. It's one of the few VHS Tapes I never threw out. And I don't remember them saying anything about why Ilia was chosen... BUT... I also haven't seen the Extended Cut in over 20 years. So it's possible that I just forgot.

    I guess I have another excuse to watch TMP. This time old-school. ;)

    I kind of (don't want to) see how horrible playing something from a VCR will look on my new 4K TV. And yes, I made sure to buy a TV that has RCA inputs. I was a little surprised I found one at all.
     
  12. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

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    And then he removes the mask that reveals a member of Starfleet (played by James Cromwell, btw) the same one who pitched a plan to rescue Kirk and McCoy (also removed) There's also a part where Scotty is bitching about Azetbur's lack of tears and that's when Spock reveals that Klingons don't have tear ducts (which I find hard to believe, and eye without moisture would necrotize within a day!!!)

    Anyway, that explained why the Klingon blood had to be of a different color. But they removed these scenes.

    Ilia healed Chekov when he was injured(Kinda like the empath on TOS) and we also see her touch Spock whos been injured by the probe, maybe to a dealy level. When she did that the probe took it as an act of aggression, as she does about anything that impedes her actions. We've seen that V'ger destroyed a station for a simple scan.
     
  13. Kor

    Kor Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    It was actually Rene Auberjonois, who would go on to play Odo in DS9.

    Kor
     
  14. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

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    You are right. For some reason, I often confuse these two.
     
  15. Bad Robot

    Bad Robot Commander Red Shirt

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    So about where you put Nemesis then? I probably rank it as more a 7 or 8/10, but subjectively. Like I've come around to thinking it's a better movie than The Search for Spock or First Contact, but I don't think I could sell that. I was very surprised by how beautiful in looked in theaters last year.

    I think unquestionably First Contact is the better movie, in fact really the only recommendable TNG film. It plays to the strengths of TNG (which is not to say I believe we ever got a faithful reinterpretation of Roddenberry's TNG for the big screen) and benefits from the best that Moore, Braga and Frakes had to offer.

    STP, I loved the direction on paper, and it did seem like a practical extension of the reexamining in both First Contact and DS9. But as Kurtzman Trek, it's hard to know how much to give it credit for that. And too much of the world building didn't make it on screen, while they still found time in the middle episodes to have the characters going through a lot of pointless moves. After four seasons, almost everything I've seen from these people is just a mess, as closely as I can even tell.

    Overall, I probably have at least some more sympathy for Berman Trek's latter years (in general) after Kurtzman Trek. But it's not in terms of any specific connection made between the two.
     
  16. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Admiral Admiral

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    1. TWOK --> 10/10
    2. TVH --> 9/10
    3. FC --> 9/10
    4. TUC --> 8/10
    5. TSFS --> 8/10
    6. TMP --> 7/10
    7. TFF --> 7/10
    8. GEN --> 6/10
    9. NEM (tied) --> 5/10
    10. INS (tied) --> 5/10

    It's been 10 years since I've seen the 2009 Film and I've only seen Into Darkness and Beyond once each, in the theater. So I can't really rate them. The only one of those three I outright didn't like was Into Darkness.

    So, even though I think NEM is mediocre, I still rate it near the bottom. I like most of the others.
     
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  17. Bad Robot

    Bad Robot Commander Red Shirt

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    OK, I gotcha. That's... pretty close to mine actually. Guess I just assumed any list would end with scores around 1/10. But of course... we all love ST.
     
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  18. Lord Garth

    Lord Garth Admiral Admiral

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    I tend to think people who say "THIS IS THE WORST EVER! 1 out of 10!!!!" are feigning Mock Outrage.

    I've seen plenty of movies that I'd legitimately rate a 1. Real, true, pure MST3K fodder. And no Star Trek movie, even the bad ones, even come close to that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2021
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  19. Vger23

    Vger23 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I haven’t ranked the movies for a while. Let’s give this a shot. This is, of course, based solely on my personal enjoyment of them.

    TWOK (10/10)

    TSFS (9/10)
    TMP (8.5/10)


    TFF (8/10)
    2009 (8/10)



    FC (7.5/10)
    NEM (7.5/10)
    TUC (7/10)

    TVH (6.5/10)
    BEY (6.5/10)

    GEN (6.25/10)
    ID (6/10)







    INS (4/10)
     
  20. TimeIsAPredator

    TimeIsAPredator Commodore Commodore

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    My opinion on both ENT and Nemesis went up slightly mostly due to my Bermantrek fatigue wearing off.
    I wasn't even excited about either at the time so disappointment wasn't an issue.

    The two that have really changed for me are GEN and TMP as I can appreciate them more now that I am older and not just looking for lasers and explosions from my sci-fi
     
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