Anyone else want to smack Mark Twain?

[Kobayshi Maru]

I love twain, but this episode is the phantom menace of trek

How so?

I actually quite like this episode. The trick is not to take it too seriously, a bit like TOS, a bit of a fun romp. I especially liked the X-Files-esque "aliens from the future who steal brain juice to survive".

Cool "ophidian" cane too!

 

[Makarov]

Time's Arrow is my least favorite two parter, it's kind of fun but I'm glad they didn't do episodes like it too much. What's next going back and getting Abe Lincoln on the Enterprise? Any more episodes like this and it would become close to Magic Schoolbus territory.

I'd prefer an episode where a malfunctioning Mark Twain holodeck character takes over the ship.

 

[tomalak301]

Star Trek was my first introduction to Mark Twain. I learned more about him and started to respect the guy but first impressions weren't all that great. It's also bad in that I watched The X Files last year and Jerry Hardin is a much better actor than what we saw with Mark Twain. If they had written Mark Twain like Deep Throat, those two episodes would have been so much better.

 

[tomalak301]

Time's Arrow is my least favorite two parter, it's kind of fun but I'm glad they didn't do episodes like it too much. What's next going back and getting Abe Lincoln on the Enterprise? Any more episodes like this and it would become close to Magic Schoolbus territory.

I'd prefer an episode where a malfunctioning Mark Twain holodeck character takes over the ship.

Didn't they kind of do that with The Savage Curtain (Regarding the whole Abe Lincoln thing)?

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Time's Arrow is my least favorite two parter, it's kind of fun but I'm glad they didn't do episodes like it too much. What's next going back and getting Abe Lincoln on the Enterprise? Any more episodes like this and it would become close to Magic Schoolbus territory.

I'd prefer an episode where a malfunctioning Mark Twain holodeck character takes over the ship.

Didn't they kind of do that with The Savage Curtain (Regarding the whole Abe Lincoln thing)?

Absolutely. They never explained, if it was the real Lincoln brought back from the past or a facsimile. They never spent much time in explanations back then.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Time's Arrow is my least favorite two parter, it's kind of fun but I'm glad they didn't do episodes like it too much. What's next going back and getting Abe Lincoln on the Enterprise? Any more episodes like this and it would become close to Magic Schoolbus territory.

I'd prefer an episode where a malfunctioning Mark Twain holodeck character takes over the ship.

Didn't they kind of do that with The Savage Curtain (Regarding the whole Abe Lincoln thing)?

But you'd have to be careful, the real Twain could never encounter the holographic version. Because, never the Twains shall meet.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Time's Arrow is my least favorite two parter, it's kind of fun but I'm glad they didn't do episodes like it too much. What's next going back and getting Abe Lincoln on the Enterprise? Any more episodes like this and it would become close to Magic Schoolbus territory.

I'd prefer an episode where a malfunctioning Mark Twain holodeck character takes over the ship.

Didn't they kind of do that with The Savage Curtain (Regarding the whole Abe Lincoln thing)?

But you'd have to be careful, the real Twain could never encounter the holographic version. Because, never the Twains shall meet.

Nice!

 

[Melakon]

Time's Arrow is my least favorite two parter, it's kind of fun but I'm glad they didn't do episodes like it too much. What's next going back and getting Abe Lincoln on the Enterprise? Any more episodes like this and it would become close to Magic Schoolbus territory.

I'd prefer an episode where a malfunctioning Mark Twain holodeck character takes over the ship.

Didn't they kind of do that with The Savage Curtain (Regarding the whole Abe Lincoln thing)?

Absolutely. They never explained, if it was the real Lincoln brought back from the past or a facsimile. They never spent much time in explanations back then.

Kirk never thinks it's the real Lincoln, that's made clear at the top of the first act before they bring him aboard.

[Transporter room]
(Scott is in kilt and plaid, the three security guards look smart)
SCOTT: Full dress? Presidential honours? What is this nonsense, Mister Dickerson?
DICKERSON: I understand President Lincoln's coming aboard, sir.
SCOTT: Ha! You're daft, man.
DICKERSON: All I know is what the captain tells me, and he says he'll have the hide of the first man that so much as smiles.
(McCoy enters)
SCOTT: I'd have expected sanity from the ship's surgeon, at least. President Lincoln, indeed. No doubt to be followed by Louis of France and Robert the Bruce.
(Kirk and Spock enter)
KIRK: If so, we'll execute appropriate honours to each, Mister Scott.
SCOTT: Aye, sir.
KIRK: Gentlemen, I don't for a moment believe that President Lincoln is actually coming aboard, but we're dealing with an unknown and apparently highly advanced life-form. Until we know, when in Rome, we'll do as the Romans do.

 

[Maurice]

As an Oaklander, I'm much more incensed by the absurd and historically inaccurate portrayal of Oakland's own Jack London.

Amen!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Didn't they kind of do that with The Savage Curtain (Regarding the whole Abe Lincoln thing)?

Absolutely. They never explained, if it was the real Lincoln brought back from the past or a facsimile. They never spent much time in explanations back then.

Kirk never thinks it's the real Lincoln, that's made clear at the top of the first act before they bring him aboard.

[Transporter room]
(Scott is in kilt and plaid, the three security guards look smart)
SCOTT: Full dress? Presidential honours? What is this nonsense, Mister Dickerson?
DICKERSON: I understand President Lincoln's coming aboard, sir.
SCOTT: Ha! You're daft, man.
DICKERSON: All I know is what the captain tells me, and he says he'll have the hide of the first man that so much as smiles.
(McCoy enters)
SCOTT: I'd have expected sanity from the ship's surgeon, at least. President Lincoln, indeed. No doubt to be followed by Louis of France and Robert the Bruce.
(Kirk and Spock enter)
KIRK: If so, we'll execute appropriate honours to each, Mister Scott.
SCOTT: Aye, sir.
KIRK: Gentlemen, I don't for a moment believe that President Lincoln is actually coming aboard, but we're dealing with an unknown and apparently highly advanced life-form. Until we know, when in Rome, we'll do as the Romans do.

These other lines provide explanation enough:

SCOTT: Locked on to something. Does that appear human to you, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: Fascinating. For a moment, it appeared almost mineral. Like living rock with heavy fore claws. It’s settling down now to completely human readings.
SCOTT: We can beam it aboard anytime now, sir.

[...]

(Kirk, Lincoln, Spock and security leave)
MCCOY: Just what was it you locked onto before you beamed him aboard?
SCOTT: You heard Mister Spock yourself. Mineral he called it, like living rock.
MCCOY: And that became Lincoln?
SCOTT: I couldn't tell. It may have been another figure down there standing by. What do you make of it?
MCCOY: I'm not quite sure.

[...]

CHEKOV: The deterioration in the shielding has stopped and is reversing itself. I have no explanation.
KIRK: Thank you, Mister Chekov. Mister Spock, any explanation?
SPOCK: Conjecture, Captain, rather than explanation.
KIRK: Well?
SPOCK: It would seem that we were held in the power of creatures able to control matter and to rearrange molecules in whatever fashion was desired. So they were able to create images of Surak and Lincoln after scanning our minds and using their fellow creatures as source matter.
KIRK: They seemed so real. And to me, especially Mister Lincoln. I feel I actually met Lincoln.
SPOCK: Yes, and Surak. Perhaps in a sense they were real, Captain. Since they were created out of our own thoughts, how could they be anything but what we expected them to be?

 

[Melakon]

Yeah, they make it pretty clear that the crew knows none of the historical characters were genuine.

 

[JD5000]

I also thought Mrs. Carmichael was bit too much, her ridiculous pronunciation of Picard's name and granting that not everyone is an actor, her line-reading from the playbook was a bit unbelievably terrible. Her reading just generally stilted. And she's not an idiot, she can hear herself and knows she can't act but she seems to accept Picard's lauds anyway, kiss not withstanding.

My impression from this was that Mrs. Carmichael's low level of literacy was the primary characteristic being displayed, not her lack of acting ability.

 

[EnriqueH]

Time's Arrow is my least favorite two parter, it's kind of fun but I'm glad they didn't do episodes like it too much. What's next going back and getting Abe Lincoln on the Enterprise? Any more episodes like this and it would become close to Magic Schoolbus territory.

I'd prefer an episode where a malfunctioning Mark Twain holodeck character takes over the ship.

Didn't they kind of do that with The Savage Curtain (Regarding the whole Abe Lincoln thing)?

But you know what?

I much prefer Abe Lincoln because Lee Bergere transcended the flawed script and gave us an Abe Lincoln to root for.

I went from saying "WTF? Lincoln in space?" to enjoying seeing Kirk and Lincoln side-by-side in an adventure to genuinely feeling bad when he got a spear to the chest. I even liked the way he kept calling Kirk "James".

It worked because the performance was good.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Didn't they kind of do that with The Savage Curtain (Regarding the whole Abe Lincoln thing)?

Absolutely. They never explained, if it was the real Lincoln brought back from the past or a facsimile. They never spent much time in explanations back then.

Kirk never thinks it's the real Lincoln, that's made clear at the top of the first act before they bring him aboard.

[Transporter room]
(Scott is in kilt and plaid, the three security guards look smart)
SCOTT: Full dress? Presidential honours? What is this nonsense, Mister Dickerson?
DICKERSON: I understand President Lincoln's coming aboard, sir.
SCOTT: Ha! You're daft, man.
DICKERSON: All I know is what the captain tells me, and he says he'll have the hide of the first man that so much as smiles.
(McCoy enters)
SCOTT: I'd have expected sanity from the ship's surgeon, at least. President Lincoln, indeed. No doubt to be followed by Louis of France and Robert the Bruce.
(Kirk and Spock enter)
KIRK: If so, we'll execute appropriate honours to each, Mister Scott.
SCOTT: Aye, sir.
KIRK: Gentlemen, I don't for a moment believe that President Lincoln is actually coming aboard, but we're dealing with an unknown and apparently highly advanced life-form. Until we know, when in Rome, we'll do as the Romans do.

I am sorry but belief is not proof. Kirk hasn't the faintest idea as to how they brought Lincoln, that much is clear.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Absolutely. They never explained, if it was the real Lincoln brought back from the past or a facsimile. They never spent much time in explanations back then.

Kirk never thinks it's the real Lincoln, that's made clear at the top of the first act before they bring him aboard.

These other lines provide explanation enough:

SCOTT: Locked on to something. Does that appear human to you, Mister Spock?
SPOCK: Fascinating. For a moment, it appeared almost mineral. Like living rock with heavy fore claws. It’s settling down now to completely human readings.
SCOTT: We can beam it aboard anytime now, sir.

[...]

(Kirk, Lincoln, Spock and security leave)
MCCOY: Just what was it you locked onto before you beamed him aboard?
SCOTT: You heard Mister Spock yourself. Mineral he called it, like living rock.
MCCOY: And that became Lincoln?
SCOTT: I couldn't tell. It may have been another figure down there standing by. What do you make of it?
MCCOY: I'm not quite sure.

[...]

CHEKOV: The deterioration in the shielding has stopped and is reversing itself. I have no explanation.
KIRK: Thank you, Mister Chekov. Mister Spock, any explanation?
SPOCK: Conjecture, Captain, rather than explanation.
KIRK: Well?
SPOCK: It would seem that we were held in the power of creatures able to control matter and to rearrange molecules in whatever fashion was desired. So they were able to create images of Surak and Lincoln after scanning our minds and using their fellow creatures as source matter.
KIRK: They seemed so real. And to me, especially Mister Lincoln. I feel I actually met Lincoln.
SPOCK: Yes, and Surak. Perhaps in a sense they were real, Captain. Since they were created out of our own thoughts, how could they be anything but what we expected them to be?

Even Spock is careful to use the expression "It would seem".

IOW, it's pure speculation, short of the aliens revealing how they created the persons in question, there is no way to know for sure.


As for recreating Lincoln from memory, please. Unless someone has eidetic memory , which happens only once in a million, there is no way someone could remember Lincoln so precisely.

Why do you think painters need to have a model posing for them?

 

[EnriqueH]

As for recreating Lincoln from memory, please. Unless someone has eidetic memory , which happens only once in a million, there is no way someone could remember Lincoln so precisely.

It could be that Kirk just finished reading a book about Lincoln.

Anyway, Lincoln's face wasn't that precise to the real deal.

Or am I missing your point?

 

[Melakon]

Kobayshi, if you're not going to accept the evidence we're given within the episode itself as the explanation as how the characters understand it, I have no idea what kind of "proof" you're looking for. You're asking for information we're not given.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Kobayshi, if you're not going to accept the evidence we're given within the episode itself as the explanation as how the characters understand it, I have no idea what kind of "proof" you're looking for. You're asking for information we're not given.

This.

There was more than enough evidence given that it was a facsimile. Besides it's a straw man that Lincoln was depicted precisely. The last line I quoted from the transcript was, "Since they were created out of our own thoughts, how could they be anything but what we expected them to be?" All that was necessary was that Lincoln be depicted in a way that was convincing to the crew. He didn't have to be depicted as he really was. He probably wasn't!

 

[Melakon]

Why do you think painters need to have a model posing for them?

So they can try to sleep with them.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

As for recreating Lincoln from memory, please. Unless someone has eidetic memory , which happens only once in a million, there is no way someone could remember Lincoln so precisely.

It could be that Kirk just finished reading a book about Lincoln.

Anyway, Lincoln's face wasn't that precise to the real deal.

Or am I missing your point?

Yes, you are, They can't recreate a picture from memory because our memory isn't that precise. Mostly we recall enough details to identify a person but that just means sizes and distances. If we need to reproduce textures and shades we need that have the model in front of us, just as the painters do when they put a little spec of paint on the canvas and then look at the model for the next one. That can be an exhausting exercise. If they could memorize the whole thing all at once, they would, believe me.

If the aliens wanted to draw a picture of Lincoln using the memory of Kirk, it's possible that they could, assuming the drawing was a bit sketchy, but a living three dimensional person? No way!