Anyone else think Space Seed kinda sucked?

[scotpens]

Marla McGivers seemed to me like an old-timey stereotype of a woman who fawns over strong, powerful men.

Not just "old timey," in case you haven't noticed we girls still gravitate toward that kind of man. Masculine stud muffins are always going to be uber sexy.

Yep, there always have been and always will be women who go for the alpha male who's strong, ambitious, and even a bit arrogant. Besides, women are suckers for a guy with a ponytail.

Although even when the episode was first broadcast back in 1967, my mother (who was watching with me) remarked, "That girl is such a simp!"

 

[CrazyMatt]

I strongly disagree. In my Mind, "Space Seed" is clearly one of the top 10 best of TOS.

On a side note, the fact that the producers agreed to place the Eugenics Wars only 30 years into the (production) future showed two things:

First, they had a rather pessimistic view of their immediate future (not surprising seeing as the Cold War got pretty warm a few times in the early 60's).

Second, they must have never figured anyone would still be watching TOS in the 1990's. Otherwise, the audience would be saying, "what the hell, there's no Eugenics War going on! What were they smoking 30 years ago?"

 

[The Old Mixer]

I think that McGivers's fascination with Khan is more than just a sexual one (though that is certainly a large part of it)...it's also an academic's obsession with her subject of specialty.

 

[nureintier]

I like it. It's flawed but then, you could nitpick any episode of TOS if you wanted to. And it does gain strength because Khan was brought back in TWOK (and later STID) but I still think it has merits on its own.

Sure, strong men who are secure in their identity are usually more attractive than the other sort, but few things in a man put me off as much as overweening arrogance, and Khan had that in spades.

This. I mean, I thought Khan was pretty cute when I first watched the beginning part of this episode for the first time, but it quickly became obvious he was a total arrogant jerk, at which point, I got upset that McGivers was still swooning over him.

And Khan was never a Sikh. No beard, waxed chest, no turban (and never wore one after being defrosted)... flat-out ignorant writing. Marla must be the worst historian in Starfleet to look at a guy like that and say "Sikh"

This. Maybe they wanted him to be originally but then didn't bother to change it or make it work later. I just try to ignore the stuff where they refer to him as a Sikh and I just pretend they said he was Mexican.

But then, that's also a symptom the times: they just cast whoever they cast, didn't matter if they fit the description or not. It requires some suspension of disbelief.

 

[Harvey]

On a side note, the fact that the producers agreed to place the Eugenics Wars only 30 years into the (production) future...

I honestly don't know the answer to this off the top of my head, but it's quite possible that Carey Wilbur is the one who picked 1996 and envisioned the Eugenics Wars, not "the producers" (who, at this point, were Roddenberry, Justman, and Coon -- although Black no doubt had his hands on the episode before he departed the series).

 

[scotpens]

"Space Seed" has some nice hardware scenes. . . Kirk busting Khan out of suspended animation and later getting locked in a vacuum chamber were also pretty cool back then; the sets were usually economized as much as fx.

I was especially impressed with Dr. McCoy's decompression chamber (seen here in pictures 19-26), which first appeared in this episode. With its inner sliding door and bulky locking mechanism, it looked like a believable piece of hardware, not something slapped together from plywood and styrofoam.

One seeming anachronism: the pressure/vacuum gauge calibrated in "In Hg" (inches of mercury), a pretty archaic measurement unit even today.

 

[CrazyMatt]

On a side note, the fact that the producers agreed to place the Eugenics Wars only 30 years into the (production) future...

I honestly don't know the answer to this off the top of my head, but it's quite possible that Carey Wilbur is the one who picked 1996 and envisioned the Eugenics Wars, not "the producers" (who, at this point, were Roddenberry, Justman, and Coon -- although Black no doubt had his hands on the episode before he departed the series).

Not to disagree... but my point is that if the producers--Coon, Roddenberry... whoever did a re-write... thought in 1966/7 that the series still would have any visibility thirty years into the future, they either had to (1) agree with the possibility of a Third World War occurring in the 90's or (2) assume a 90's audience would be able to suspend belief in reality enough to "ignore their lying eyes." If neither if these are true, it stands to reason they would have rewritten the script to place the Eugenics wars further into the future.

I think the most likely reason is that the producers figured Star Trek would be a distant memory by the 1990's, and in that case, who cares what is said to happen only 30 years from now (then).

 

[Harvey]

One seeming anachronism: the pressure/vacuum gauge calibrated in "In Hg" (inches of mercury), a pretty archaic measurement unit even today.

Interestingly enough, de Forest Research reccomended a different label, but since their memo was issued just two days before filming began, it's possible the indicator had already been made:

ANGLE ON INDICATOR – It is labeled ATMOSPHERIC PRESSURE – The gauge should be calibrated in “meters of altitude.”

 

[Harvey]

I think the most likely reason is that the producers figured Star Trek would be a distant memory by the 1990's, and in that case, who cares what is said to happen only 30 years from now (then).

Oh, probably. It was such a dash to get the episodes finished before they were scheduled to air that I'm sure few people gave much thought to what would happen with the series three decades later.

I just wanted to point out that the producers may not have picked the date, just stuck with it after Wilbur wrote it. Star Trek was, after all, highly dependent upon freelancers.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Sucked? Well..no. However, it has crossed my mind over the years that Space Seed may in fact be a story about Marla McGivers, rather than Khan. Khan was just the impetus for her journey from what she started out as, and what she became.

Just a thought.

 

[Agenda]

I love this episode. But even I have to admit it wouldn't have been a tenth of what it turned out to be if not for Ricardo Montalban. If they had cast some schlub with zero presence or charisma to play Khan it may have been another Alternative Factor and easily forgettable in Trek lore.

 

[Lance]

All the crew were awesome in the face of imminent death especially McCoty. No one caved into Khan's demands other than McGivers and eventually she realised she was in the wrong.

I'm glad someone else noticed this. I love the scene where Uhura refuses to do Khan's bidding, even while she is being threatened with violence. Nichelle has no dialogue in that scene, but the defiance that she infers in her performance and her expressions was just awesome beyond words.

 

[Melakon]

"Sucked" is a rather vague word I think, and seems to be used merely to provoke an argument.

I certainly don't think the production had any idea people would still be watching it 30 years later. Television as home entertainment had barely existed for 20 years by that point, so the most they would have anticipated was maybe 3-5 years in syndication.

There are several things I liked in the episode. There's the Botany Bay model, one of the few supporting ships we ever saw. The dinner scene verbal jousting is one of the better dialogue scenes in the series. Another good moment is when Joachim slaps Uhura, half the Enterprise's men start to jump from their chairs.

I think all the music is tracked from earlier episodes, but it's effective at a couple of spots-- the beam in to Botany Bay, and later after Khan has put his plan into motion, with Kirk and Spock finding out they're trapped on the bridge.

The stunt doubles were much too obvious in the big fight scene, even in 1967.

It's definitely Montalban's show all the way, and he takes full advantage of it.

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

I'm not picking on this fine episode one bit, but just from an interesting technical standpoint ever notice the massive shadow from the camera operator as Kirk walks further into the Botany Bay after beaming in?

 

[2takesfrakes]

"The Things We Do for Love," is that what you think the theme was to Space Seed, Mr. Schwarz?

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Not sure I follow you, Frakes...but know ye that you've stuck that song in my head now!

 

[2takesfrakes]

Oops ... I thought I read a statement from you, where you felt that SPACE SEED was really about the "journey" of Marla McGuivers. I thought it was the last post ... curious. In any event, yes ... that old ditty The Things We Do for Love is utter shite. Please, forgive ...

 

[LMFAOschwarz]

Oh, I did make that post. I was just positing the possibility, more than actually arguing for it. We do "meet" Marla first, there's much discussion of her preoccupation with the past, her googly-eyed transformation into being Khan's flunky, her change of heart, so to speak, and her eventual exile with Khan. At the very least her story is every bit as integral as Khan's to the story. Personally, I thought she was a pretty screwed-up person.

(like walking in the rain and the snow
and there's no place to go
and you feel like a part of you is dying
you're looking for the answer in her eyes
you think she wants to break up
then she says she wants to make up.... )

 

[Melakon]

I liked looking at Madlyn Rhue in the episode, but didn't care much for Marla McGivers. Rhue had worked with Montalban before; in a Bonanza episode they were from some Indian tribe and she was his wife or lover or something.

 

[2takesfrakes]

(like walking in the rain and the snow
and there's no place to go
and you feel like a part of you is dying
you're looking for the answer in her eyes
you think she wants to break up
then she says she wants to make up.... )

Feels like I'm in an elevator, all of a sudden. Or maybe I'm at the dentist's ... egads!

Marla McGuivers, much more than Khan, I think, set the tone for future STAR TREKs after TWOK. She wasn't included in that, as we all know so very well, the actress playing her had been suffering from physical ailments for a long time and, quite simply, was unable to take on the part. So rather than recast, Harve Bennett just killed Marla off. Now, everybody's lost someone as their motivation for revenge and it's always somebody else's fault. I wonder how that old chestnut would've evolved had Marla been in STAR TREK II? Personally, I think the villians - and stories - would've ended up a hell of a lot better.