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Anyone else love Nemesis?

Seeing it in the theater (it was the first Trek movie theater experience), I enjoyed it, but I was more psyched about seeing my favorites on the big screen for the first time ever (It seemed like every other time in my history I tried to see Trek movies, something would always happen to where I couldn't go). So my perceptions were colored by that for a while, but then it all started to sink in. When it came out on DVD, I watched it over and over again, and then I sighed and put it away.

J.
 
Ok, I usually don’t have the patience to read all the replies when most usually end up being arguments, anymore, so please excuse me if I am repeating what’s already said.

Nemesis to me, was very bad for many reasons. All of them legitimate in my view. I will try to explain them all objectively.

Data’s new brother, B4: A relatively unoriginal concept to include in a movie for the big screen, based on a series which has included Data’s other brother, Data’s daughter and Data’s daddy in numerous story arcs. It seemed relatively bare and quite….*yawn* seen this stuff before, give us something new, in feeling and in implementation.


Shinzon: Now here is the ruination. Now, I can accept romulans cloning captain, making them genetically defunct by accident due to rapid maturity and such. I can understand all that, that the Romulan’s being Romulan’s.

What I can’t accept is his entire mentality and choice of targets and enemies. He was tortured by Romulans, enslaved by Romulans, befreiended by Remans which were also slaves to Romulans.

What’s his beef with earth, and especially Picard?

He is the whiteman raised by Indians story, with no hint of the white man raised by Indians methos to him. They should really have hit on that, yet they made him too dimensional. He’s going to attack earth…WHY? To be remembered? That doesn’t quite fit. There’s plenty of worlds that are just as important to earth that have done the Romulan Empire more damage, his only experience in war is fighting beside humans and romulans against the dominion.

His motives against earth still don’t make sense.

Earth being lost will not cripple the federation, its too vast. Infact the federation would beyond crying voer the deaths of so many, really wouldn’t be affected in the long term.

Stop targeting earth with 2-dimensional bad guys whose motives are questionable against any form of logic…earth aint that important in the galaxy, just because they think it touches us…earth based viewers.

I can accept his need to kill picard for genetic material, but I cannot understand his hate of picard. He’s a clone yes, but he is his own person, he is not an echo of the voice.



But overall, the movie introduced nothing new.

Angry clones, Data’s brother used evily, Target: Earth for no logical reason at all, …

It’s just a badly written TNG episode adapted for the silver screen.

It is not cinema quality.

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I go to the cinemas to watch something that deserves to be on that big screen.

Nemesis deserved to be a direct to DVD release at best.

*******EDIT*******

Instantly after writing this article I turned to realise one of my cats had just done a massive shit on one of my jackets. After I got over the anger of that considering it DOES know how to use the kitty litter, and it had access and I rubbed its nose in it and cleaned it up...I thought. "Man, he just summed my thoughts of Nemesis up in one simply action: Same shit, worse smell than usual."
 
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It's not my favorite TNG movie, but I really liked Nemesis. After seeing the DVD extras, I would have liked them kept in.
 
I like it a lot and don't understand all the arguments people have against it. I'm not saying it was highly innovative/amazing or anything, but good grief, none of the Trek films are.

To a couple of Lashmore's points:

* You don't get what his beef with Picard/earth is? He practically spells it out. Picard got the life he never did. Picard had the opportunity, the family, the heroism, the IDENTITY. Shinzon is angry and bitter about that. It might seem odd (Picard never asked to be cloned after all), but that's clone logic for you.
There were poorer kids at school for hating richer kids who had nicer stuff/more stable loving family than they did... that hatred doesn't make much sense, but to me its understandable. Even moreso for Shinzon as he sees himself and Picard as the same person, split in two very different directions. As for Earth... I'm guessing he associates that strongly with Picard, and the life Shinzon could have had...

* As for working with Romulans (who he hated) - I got the impression he was going to deal with them once he'd gone after Picard. I even got the sense he was going to transform THEM into the slaves rather than the Remans. His hatred of them is quite clear - like when the Romulan Commander tries to touch him...

Another moan about Nemesis is often "the secondary TNG characters didn't have much to do" - well, surprise surprise, this isn't new or unique to Nemesis. Take a look at TOS; take a look at TOS movies; then take a look at the other TNG movies, and even the TNG series itself. Sure, Troi and Crusher had "their" episodes but they were never in the same league as the "big 3/4". Also, there are just not many truly ensemble action-adventure movies around. New audiences want to see pretty quickly who the big players are, who they should care about etc. In 100 mins, they can't focus on all seven crew members.

Nemesis is good. Not fantastic, but good. I certainly place it in the top 5 ST movies.
 
I saw it on a pirated DVD here in Taiwan because it wasn't coming out until March of 2003...thinking that I'd like it enough to go see in the theater anyway.
I never did.
I've seen every Trek since TWOK in the theater. :(
 
While it remains towards the bottom on my list of the Trek films, it is still way more watchable than Generations. I've just recently rewatched it, and IMHO, its not quite as bad as I had remembered. I think a lot of the bad wrap that the movie gets is the fact that it so misserably failed to live up to the hype/hope that had been stirred up around it prior to its release.
 
I believe it to be the best of the TNG films and corrected a lot of what was wrong the TNG in general.
So it's not just the Zone... you take edgy, unpopular positions all over the board! ;)
It is not done on purpose, it is just how I feel and perceive things.

:)


I don't have a problem with differing view points. So what, in your view, do you feel needed to be "fixed" about TNG?
 
I enjoyed it greatly. I am and was always well aware of the less than original plot and certain holes, but honestly, I had a great time on opening night. The film is fine, exciting, fun and has a great score.

I never got the hate either, there is SO much worse Trek out there.
 
So it's not just the Zone... you take edgy, unpopular positions all over the board! ;)
It is not done on purpose, it is just how I feel and perceive things.

:)


I don't have a problem with differing view points. So what, in your view, do you feel needed to be "fixed" about TNG?

There was way too much talk and not enough action in certain required situations. I would have loved to see Picard react to Khan in TWOK. First contact started to correct that. Diplomacy is fine in situations where it would work. When you see it not working or not going to work you act not have a confrence.
 
Trek Survivor summed up my thoughts on Shinzons motivation. It is said in the film, it made sense to me... yet it's one of two complaints that bugs me. The other being 'Picard would never crash his ship on purpose!' which was the whole point of him crashing his ship on purpose.

I wouldn't say I loved it, but I liked it. Baird shouldn't have been involved with it, the opening scene looked weak but I liked the theatre ending rather than the deleted ending. Mainly as the ending we saw had that 'Great Escape' optimism about it.
 
Instantly after writing this article I turned to realise one of my cats had just done a massive shit on one of my jackets. After I got over the anger of that considering it DOES know how to use the kitty litter, and it had access and I rubbed its nose in it and cleaned it up...I thought. "Man, he just summed my thoughts of Nemesis up in one simply action: Same shit, worse smell than usual."
We'll just say he took a massive Nemesis on your jacket. Gets the same message across.
 
I watched it on dvd a couple of weeks ago for the first time, and it is no where near as bad as I have been lead to believe. Not a great film by any stretch of the imagination, but certainly not a bad one.
 
I believe it to be the best of the TNG films and corrected a lot of what was wrong the TNG in general.
You mean all that pesky character development and a focus on actual plots over fancy 'splosions? Yeah, glad they got rid of all that. :rolleyes:
 
I rewatched Nemesis only a couple of days ago and for the first time I didn't hate it. The central story is incredibly misguided, and there perhaps isn't a single scene in which something is amiss or doesn't make sense, but if you take it with a huge pinch of salt it's nice to see the crew in action one more time. That said, it is by far the poorest of the TNG movies - INS isn't bad, it just isn't that exciting - and it's a great shame Picard and co didn't get a far higher quality send-off.
 
One thing that I really dislike about Nemesis, actually, is how it's so obviously - and according to the writer, INTENTIONALLY - trying to be like Wrath of Khan. That, I think is the greatest mistake of the story. It doesn't try to be its own story, it tries to be a reflection of another one. If they'd come up with parallels in the writing, fine, but no, it was MEANT to resemble Wrath of Khan, and it never got a chance to develop its own identity - at least, not until the fandom gave it the identity of 'it SUCKS.'

And for a movie that was advertised as 'a generation's final journey,' it didn't actually UTILIZE the generation that much - remove Geordi and Beverly from the finished product and nothing really changes.Hey, you could probably even take out Worf and Riker for all they do - Riker fights the Viceroy, but that character could just as easily have been killed on the Scimitar during the crash or something.
 
I rewatched Nemesis only a couple of days ago and for the first time I didn't hate it. The central story is incredibly misguided, and there perhaps isn't a single scene in which something is amiss or doesn't make sense, but if you take it with a huge pinch of salt it's nice to see the crew in action one more time. That said, it is by far the poorest of the TNG movies - INS isn't bad, it just isn't that exciting - and it's a great shame Picard and co didn't get a far higher quality send-off.

Bingo. It almost looks like something that could have been great, but instead it detoured and just plummeted in my opinion. If there is anything they did right, the CGI for the film was spectacular. Well done, in my opinion, but everything else was weak. It's a good background movie to play on the TV if you're working on the internet, but I can no longer really watch it without noticing all the "off" moments in the movie, and I'm by no means a strict Canonite.

J.
 
Sorry, but NEM is a failure in my eyes. Nearly everything they tried to do in this film fell flat, IMO. I think the basic story had some potential, but its execution was completely wrong. Rick Berman and the studio wanted to desperately to recapture the magic of TWOK that they literally just copied TWOK. And it shows.

I wasn't a big fan of Data's story. To this day, I don't understand why Data was forced to have a B or C plot in each TNG film. GEN and INS turned him into a bad joke machine. FC gave him a decent story. His journey in NEM just wasn't necessary, particularly since B4 is a terrible character and his inclusion stretches even my imagination. Wow, it sure is convenient that Shinzon just happened to run across one of the most rare inventions - a prototype Soong android - and conveniently knew how to use him to lure the Enterprise (as if it's the only ship in the quadrant that would detect the signal). Plot contrivances like this really irritate me.

I never really felt that Shinzon was a believable character. I don't buy that a human clone of Picard who was created - then discarded by the Romulans would manage to lead a revolt with the Remans and overthrow the Romulan government. Again, it's just too contrived for me to fathom. The Romulans are supposed to be intelligent, deceptive foes - how hard would it have really been for them to have simply killed Shinzon? They made a huge mistake by even allowing him to exist once their plans changed - if anyone ever found out that the Romulans were plotting to replace Picard, there could be a serious response by the Federation. You'd think they would be smart enough to simply kill the clone and bury or destroy all evidence.

By the time NEM rolls around, I've also grown incredibly tired of TNG's paint-by-numbers climax countdown sequence. GEN had it. FC kinda had it. INS had it. NEM had it, too. The supervillian has their weapon of doom and is counting down to unleash it (because, ya know, there has to be a countdown, otherwise they aren't evil enough). Picard tries to reason with the villian but then has to turn into an Action Hero to save the day. Yawn.

Stuart Baird's direction wasn't offensive, but it was surely uninspired. The performances suffered greatly under his watch. I don't think the actors really had a good time making this film (compared to the other films, which were handled by directors the cast was accustomed to working with). Baird's editorial choices were particularly bad. This man has earned many awards for his accomplishments as an editor. That's what this guy has a reputation for in Hollywood. He isn't an experienced director - he's supposed to be a talented editor. So why the frak did this guy cut some of the most important character moments and story points? He kept pushing to make this an action film and cut out as much dialogue as possible. This made the poor storyline even weaker.

I will say this much. The Enterprise-E looked pretty good in this film. In fact, I think the sets looked their best in this film. The bridge, in particular. The CGI f/x work was fairly decent - a huge leap forward from the cheap f/x work in INS. Still not as good as the model work and CGI from FC, though.
 
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