How do you know? Prove it.
Anyone else disturbed by La Forges sexual harrasment of Leah Brahms?
- Thread starter Crazyewok
- Start date
How do you know? Prove it.
?file=La_Forge_kisses_Brahms_hologram.jpg)
Sorry, didn't work first time round...
http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Booby_Trap_(episode)?file=La_Forge_kisses_Brahms_hologram.jpg
M
marlboro
Guest
What? I kiss my mother like that all the time.
Yours truly,
Oedipus
Yours truly,
Oedipus
I dont think Geordi was a bad or harmfull person.
But I think he might have needed a few appointments with Troi to explain what appropriate behavior is.
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"Im with you every day geordi. Every time you look at this engine your looking at me. Every time you touch it its me"
That along with him kissing the holodeck implies it.
well you just did.
And its estabilished holodecks can be used for such things.
To be fair, it's not like Geordi created the holoprogram expecting HoloBrahms to behave as she did. And personally I don't think it ever actually turned sexual (I certainly hope it didn't).
Geordi is a bit of a dense idiot in "Galaxy's Child" but he doesn't do anything unforgivable. Clearly not by Leah's standards, in any case.
Geordi is a bit of a dense idiot in "Galaxy's Child" but he doesn't do anything unforgivable. Clearly not by Leah's standards, in any case.
Only the ones who were not yet affected by the virus.
I see no canon reason to think Geordi was lying when he said he never used the Brahms program after the Booby Trap incident. And I think his words in Hollow Pursuits reacting to Barcalay doing exactly that support that he did not.
I guess you could argue that Data, having difficulty reading emotion, may legitimately not have seen any irregularity with Tasha's behavior. I guess it depends whether, at the time, he had knowledge of an intoxicating effect spreading throughout the crew. I don't remember the episode well enough to answer that question.
Also I think in TNG and especially the Roddenberry influenced free-love sexed up season 1, it was no longer taboo to be in a relationship with your superior officer.
Hey, do you think Data was actually drunk in that episode or if there was some sort of sympathetic behavior subroutine that got triggered and Data later modified after the episode to prevent it from affecting him when lives are at risk?
It's important to remember that what was in the holodeck wasn't Leah Bramms, regardless of it's appearance.
Holodeck characters are basically avatars of the ship's computer, the computer is providing the avatar's movements and the computer is speaking through them.
Geordi kisses the ship's computer.
Holodeck characters are basically avatars of the ship's computer, the computer is providing the avatar's movements and the computer is speaking through them.
Geordi kisses the ship's computer.
I ag
I agree that it's not sexual harrasment, but it is creepy and stalkerish. I guess a lot of depends on where you draw the line between how much offence is intended (obviously none), and how much intention is actually caused.
"Creepy" and "stalkerish" are all we ever hear when a man shows even the slightest interest in a woman anymore. It really is a damn wonder people even manage to get together anymore, let alone reproduce.
And no, Geordi didn't do a damned thing wrong. At least Leah had the grace to apologize for her over the top outburst to him.
And no, Geordi didn't do a damned thing wrong. At least Leah had the grace to apologize for her over the top outburst to him.
It was pretty bold of the TNG writers to portray one of the main characters, and host of "Reading Rainbow" as a weirdo creep who doesn't know how to interact with women. Geordi revealed as a degenerate was fertile ground.
It was a missed opportunity not take that way further. Like the movie, "Her".
I know the writers made a nod to Continuity by having "Future Geordi" refer to his wife Leah in, "All Good Things". But, that was unfortunate & troubling because Geordi ultimately "won" and got the girl.
Between Geordi & Barkley, were the writers having a laugh and using some character traits of convention-going Trekkies as inspiration?
It was a missed opportunity not take that way further. Like the movie, "Her".
I know the writers made a nod to Continuity by having "Future Geordi" refer to his wife Leah in, "All Good Things". But, that was unfortunate & troubling because Geordi ultimately "won" and got the girl.
Between Geordi & Barkley, were the writers having a laugh and using some character traits of convention-going Trekkies as inspiration?
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So not only is Geordi a creepy stalker, he's also a homewrecker.
As for the holodeck program itself, yeah, it is important to point out that Geordi never intended to create one. It was all the computer's idea. Geordi only gave it the real Dr. Brahms' personality so it would be easier to work with her.
Wasn't until after that happened that Geordi turned weird.
So I rewatched both episodes with this discussion in mind, and there were definitely a few things which stood out...
Booby Trap opens with Geordi on an unsucessful date and Guinan (whose sole purpose aboard Enterprise is to be the voice of reason) tells him that he's trying too hard, and that essentially he just needs to wait until he finds the right woman, and he won't need to try at all. He also shows he has a few issues he needs to get over as well: "great, another woman who won't get personal with me on the holodeck".
He never specifically asks for HoloBrahms to be created, but he never mentions her to Picard who twice makes incorrect assumptions ("pass my congratulations to your team", "return to engineering") which he fails to correct. It's almost like he knows what he's doing, and is ashamed. He forgets she's real ("don't go away, erm, I mean save program"), and yes, HoloBrahms flirts back with him, but by the end of the episode he does essentially learn his lesson, even if he can't resist one romantic kiss good bye. He's still got a way to go, but at least now he realises this, and how he can go about it.
It's Galaxy's Child where it gets proper creepy though. He's excited to meet the real Brahms, which is completely understandable, but while he's showing her around the Enterprise he never mentions HoloBrahms even when he has plenty of oppurtunities. Worse than this, he even takes the credit for "her" ideas, and flirts with Brahms based on the holoprogram, offering to cook for her what HoloBrahms offered to cook for him. He's actively using that knowledge to maintain the upper hand over her and attempts to coerce her into a relationship when it turns out she doesn't like him as much as HoloBrahms did. All of this while they are meant to be professionals.
Guinan again tries to steer him in the right direction, telling Geordi that the only thing she's supposedly done "wrong" is not meet his expectations, but then when Brahms eventually finds the program and expresses her outrage at Geordi, "I have been invaded, violated", he just shouts back at her with his #notallmen speech. Whereas before he was naive, he now comes across as a self entitled teenager bitching about being "stuck in the friendzone", even though there's no such thing.
Booby Trap opens with Geordi on an unsucessful date and Guinan (whose sole purpose aboard Enterprise is to be the voice of reason) tells him that he's trying too hard, and that essentially he just needs to wait until he finds the right woman, and he won't need to try at all. He also shows he has a few issues he needs to get over as well: "great, another woman who won't get personal with me on the holodeck".
He never specifically asks for HoloBrahms to be created, but he never mentions her to Picard who twice makes incorrect assumptions ("pass my congratulations to your team", "return to engineering") which he fails to correct. It's almost like he knows what he's doing, and is ashamed. He forgets she's real ("don't go away, erm, I mean save program"), and yes, HoloBrahms flirts back with him, but by the end of the episode he does essentially learn his lesson, even if he can't resist one romantic kiss good bye. He's still got a way to go, but at least now he realises this, and how he can go about it.
It's Galaxy's Child where it gets proper creepy though. He's excited to meet the real Brahms, which is completely understandable, but while he's showing her around the Enterprise he never mentions HoloBrahms even when he has plenty of oppurtunities. Worse than this, he even takes the credit for "her" ideas, and flirts with Brahms based on the holoprogram, offering to cook for her what HoloBrahms offered to cook for him. He's actively using that knowledge to maintain the upper hand over her and attempts to coerce her into a relationship when it turns out she doesn't like him as much as HoloBrahms did. All of this while they are meant to be professionals.
Guinan again tries to steer him in the right direction, telling Geordi that the only thing she's supposedly done "wrong" is not meet his expectations, but then when Brahms eventually finds the program and expresses her outrage at Geordi, "I have been invaded, violated", he just shouts back at her with his #notallmen speech. Whereas before he was naive, he now comes across as a self entitled teenager bitching about being "stuck in the friendzone", even though there's no such thing.
The way Geordi treated Brahms may not have been sexual assault like Kim, but the fact is that both instances are problematic and need to at least be addressed as such.
He wasn't bad, and never intended to hurt Brahms, but the fact that she felt invaded and violated can't be ignored. And yep, if Guinan didn't get through he definitely needs professional advice.
This is half the problem, the fact that Brahms felt so betrayed and hurt by what he did, but still lets him get away with it. And so by extension, so does the episode as a whole.
M
marlboro
Guest
"Problematic"
lol
So, when you guys meet someone in the real world that you may have fantasized about, do you make sure to confess your "sins" to them as soon as possible?
"It's a pleasure to meet you Mr Nimoy - sorry about strapping you into that gimp suit in my dream last night. And, uh, if you see that Horta prop would you mind passing along another "my bad" for me? Thanks!"
lol
So, when you guys meet someone in the real world that you may have fantasized about, do you make sure to confess your "sins" to them as soon as possible?
"It's a pleasure to meet you Mr Nimoy - sorry about strapping you into that gimp suit in my dream last night. And, uh, if you see that Horta prop would you mind passing along another "my bad" for me? Thanks!"
I recently listened to the Greatest Generation podcast episode about "Galaxy's Child" (that podcast is great, BTW), and I feel like those guys really nail it, which is that it's all fine, until Geordi's reaction when Brahms discovers the hologram, and then it goes off the rails and he ends up sounding like an MRA asshole.
Up until that point, they've been careful to keep Geordi's actions JUST within the bounds of acceptable behavior -- or at least, behavior for which you can imagine an innocent motivation. He could be hiding the truth about the hologram because he's ashamed or because he's trying to use it to manipulate the real Leah, but he could also be sitting on it because explaining it would be an uncomfortable conversation there's no reason to subject her to, it could be so easily misunderstood, etc (the way I read it, it's probably a little from column A and a little from column B). It's also key that the computer initially created the hologram on it's own initiative.
But ultimately I think the episodes do a good job of showing Geordi making a series of small, understandable steps, which lead him to cross a line so gradually that you can sympathize with how he gets there and you don't have to totally indict the character for it.
And then it's all blown to hell when Geordi responds to Leah's feeling of violation by yelling at her for not liking him enough. That's really gross and ugly. There's no way to spin that one favorably.
Ultimately, I want to put "Galaxy's Child" in the box with DS9's "Let He Who Is Without Sin", episodes that compromise the characters so badly I just want to remove them from my personal headcannon.
Up until that point, they've been careful to keep Geordi's actions JUST within the bounds of acceptable behavior -- or at least, behavior for which you can imagine an innocent motivation. He could be hiding the truth about the hologram because he's ashamed or because he's trying to use it to manipulate the real Leah, but he could also be sitting on it because explaining it would be an uncomfortable conversation there's no reason to subject her to, it could be so easily misunderstood, etc (the way I read it, it's probably a little from column A and a little from column B). It's also key that the computer initially created the hologram on it's own initiative.
But ultimately I think the episodes do a good job of showing Geordi making a series of small, understandable steps, which lead him to cross a line so gradually that you can sympathize with how he gets there and you don't have to totally indict the character for it.
And then it's all blown to hell when Geordi responds to Leah's feeling of violation by yelling at her for not liking him enough. That's really gross and ugly. There's no way to spin that one favorably.
Ultimately, I want to put "Galaxy's Child" in the box with DS9's "Let He Who Is Without Sin", episodes that compromise the characters so badly I just want to remove them from my personal headcannon.
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So when you meet someone you've fantaised about, do you lie to their face if they ask you a direct question?
No, Geordi didn't have to come straight out and own up about HoloBrahms as soon as he met the real Brahms, but he didn't have to take the credit for her ideas and try to use that against her either.
Yep, that's a pretty great way of summing it up.
1. Geordi came up with the idea to re-orient the crystal without any input from the simulated Brahms. He then went on to make real the idea based on the research logs of Brahms' prototype.
2. When asked if it was his idea, he said "Not exclusively, no." He lied by omission.
Why do we need to? Characters should be like people, make mistakes and learn from them. TNG was sterile enough already sometimes, should we take away any moments where the characters are wrong or make bad decisions or act rashly? Besides which, are we talking about the scene where Leah accuses him of things he did not do? (She basically accuses him of the same things that this thread has.) It's not unusual to lash out when accused of something that isn't true.
She forgave him for making her feel bad, came to understand that he meant no harm. That's what people do sometimes.