Should Starfleet Intelligence be like Section 31, though?
Anyone else dislike Section 31?
- Thread starter TheLobes
- Start date
Should Starfleet Intelligence be like Section 31, though?
I always liked Section 31 and conservative elements in the Federation because they make a lot of sense. You have a somewhat naive governing body, strangled by the Prime Directive, that elects an alien president to oversee Earth (a successful and peaceful Marxist society with no shortage of resources for its inhabitants). This is an excellent situation in peacetime, but in a war against an insidious enemy that threatens the entire quadrant? Within elements of the Federation a group of men and women, loyal servants to humanity and Earth, dedicate themselves to making tough decisions and protecting the rest by any and all means necessary. I didn't always agree with them, but I felt like they were a nice addition to DS9.
I always wondered about the whole "communist" elements people ascribe to Star Trek, though that's a story for another time. It's fairly clear that people have everything they want but that's not really communism.
Oh well, a story for another time.
I ultimately like Section 31 as basically a metaphor. The idea that there will always be people who want to do the "hard thing" instead of the idealistic thing. Often, these people aren't right but just plain evil.
Oh well, a story for another time.
I ultimately like Section 31 as basically a metaphor. The idea that there will always be people who want to do the "hard thing" instead of the idealistic thing. Often, these people aren't right but just plain evil.
Officially it's all human I believe. However if it gave them an advantage of some kind, I can't imagine why they wouldn't have agents from other member worlds.
Section 31 was great, and it made so much sense that the Federation had a covert spy group like the Romulans and Cardassians had. Though I do sort of agree with Section 31 that Starfleet and Starfleet Intelligence were bound by too many rules to get the real dirty work done.
Then there is the matter of Section 31 trying to exterminate the Founders. The way I see it was that it was either us (Earth) or them (Founders). We know in Sacrifice of Angels that the Dominion were considering killing all of Earth's inhabitants once the Dominion won the war. It seems to me that Section 31 had remarkable hindsight and powers of deduction when it assessed just how dangerous the Dominion really was.
The bottom line is that Section 31 is a necessary evil, and either Starfleet and the Federation takes a far more proactive (less diplomatic posturing and more forceful, tangible actions) to deal with galactic matters, then I think Section 31's time would have passed.
Then there is the matter of Section 31 trying to exterminate the Founders. The way I see it was that it was either us (Earth) or them (Founders). We know in Sacrifice of Angels that the Dominion were considering killing all of Earth's inhabitants once the Dominion won the war. It seems to me that Section 31 had remarkable hindsight and powers of deduction when it assessed just how dangerous the Dominion really was.
The bottom line is that Section 31 is a necessary evil, and either Starfleet and the Federation takes a far more proactive (less diplomatic posturing and more forceful, tangible actions) to deal with galactic matters, then I think Section 31's time would have passed.
I see people are still making the mistake of thinking S31 = Tal Shiar or Obsidian Order or Imperial Intelligence. Not so.
Starfleet Intelligence is the Federation spy/counterspy organization; Section 31 was a band of criminals that took it on themselves to "protect" the Federation.
Starfleet Intelligence is the Federation spy/counterspy organization; Section 31 was a band of criminals that took it on themselves to "protect" the Federation.
Well my view is, better to have them (S31) inside the tent pissing out, then outside it pissing in...
I was ambivalent. Liked the premise, but disliked the distortion of the Roddenberry vision. I don't care if it's unrealistic. Realism is incidental, an artistic work doesn't have to be totally realistic. In that case all of Trek must be discarded, with faster than light ships, cuts and scratches that can be healed instantly, and most alien species being humaniod lol...
I'm not sure it's a distortion of Roddenberry's vision to have it challenged. Section 31 is basically the Gestapo operating in the Federation but it's doing so as a remnant and direct challenge to his vision. It asks, really, the heroes whether or not they will trade success for morality.
It's one thing for Section 31 to oppose the Founders. It's another for them to start murdering dissidents and that's only one step away when those with no accountability have absolute power.
Hmm... Well Section 31 and certain Starfleet admirals did work together of sorts, since admiral Ross made that reference in Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges. The fact is Section 31 wouldn't exist if Starfleet admirals (certain ones) continued to look the other way. Which means at the higher levels Starfleet knew all along what Section 31 was doing, and they must have been comfortable with the arrangement, since Section 31 did the dirty work but none of it could be traced to Starfleet or the Federation. Very neat little arrangement.
I don't get why it needs to be challenged. people who make the point that Roddenberry's vision is unrealistic miss the point. It's an artistic work, it's not meant to represent reality.
Except Cerberus has better toys, more funding, and a cooler boss, and also don't waste time trying to recruit a let's face it minor officer who isn't even interested in joining their organization as well as goon about it the WRONG WAY. Oh and Section 31 isn't good enough to lick The Illusive Man's likely very expensive shoes.
But other than that I guess you could say their similar.
But yes 31 are a bunch of terrorists.
Also I would not compare then to a SPECTRE as they have oversight from the council and are handled if the get too far out of line. Section 31 does not have this at all.
Oh and on the subject of 31 being the fed tal shiar or obsidian order, you guys know those organizations also go after and arrest or kill people who so much as question their governments right? Does the federation really need something like that
I'm not sure how realistic a criminal conspiracy that infiltrates a democratic government and survives, underground, putting spies in their own President's cabinet, actually is.
No. MI6 and the CIA answer to the democratically-elected governments of the United Kingdom and United States, respectively. Section 31 answers to no one -- it's not a state agency, it's a criminal conspiracy. It even spied on the Federation President.
If Section 31 has a real-life counterpart, it would be the alleged Deep State of the Republic of Turkey.
ETA:
Unestablished. We know that there was some sort of ancestral agency in the United Earth Starfleet, but we don't know canonically if the Section 31 that came to exist in the Federation had non-Human members.
For whatever it's worth, Section 31 agents in the novels have included Vulcans, Andorians, Ullians, Betazoids, and Caitians.
Well, to be fair, we haven't actually seen Section 31 do that. They are not like the Obsidian Order or the Tal Shiar in that most Federation citizens are not aware of S31, and those that are, do not particularly fear it. S31 doesn't concern itself with punishing traitors or eradicating dissent. They don't *enforce* Federation policy, at least not within the Federation proper. They may claim that they seek to protect it, but that's the extent of their reach. Indeed, it makes it easier for them to be secret, because if they started carrying out purges of normal citizenry, they'd have already been exposed.
Of course this doesn't come anywhere even close to legitimizing S31's existence - they are still criminals. But let's punish them for what they actually do, or would be expected to do.
Section 31 was a criminal organization and not half as efffective as its agents thought themselves to be.
Despite all that, Section 31 was portrayed as FAR more competent than the federation's intelligence agencies.
During TNG, you had an utter lack of information on the romulans at their apparition; if the federation knew something, the romulans knew it at almost the same time (tin man, pegasus); the federation losing technological and strategical information easily; the federation being infiltrated by parasites at the highest levels; etc.
DS9 continues to display incompetence on the part of the federation's intelligencce agencies (despite a 'tell, don't show' about them being competent).
If you take trek lit into account...well, the less said the better.
Despite all that, Section 31 was portrayed as FAR more competent than the federation's intelligence agencies.
During TNG, you had an utter lack of information on the romulans at their apparition; if the federation knew something, the romulans knew it at almost the same time (tin man, pegasus); the federation losing technological and strategical information easily; the federation being infiltrated by parasites at the highest levels; etc.
DS9 continues to display incompetence on the part of the federation's intelligencce agencies (despite a 'tell, don't show' about them being competent).
If you take trek lit into account...well, the less said the better.
About the only organized dissidents that we see are the maquis. In that case, federation policy was enforced by Starfleet itself.
They were being thrown off their land, hunted, jailed and (iirc) killed. But S31 had (apparently) no part in that.
And at the end of the day (for better or worst) S31 was correct. The deadly sickness they gave to the Founders was a strong contributing factor in the Federation winning the Dominion War.
The final end game might have been different than S31 envisioned it, but the war's end definitely would have been different without the sickness.
There was no actual genocide, only the threat of it.
Section 31 was a hyper-patriot organization with strong ties to the government and the military. Can anyone say the once they were gone a near identical organization didn't spring up in it's place, to fulfill the identical role within the Federation?
Directly, we see the federation intelligence agencies rarely, yes.
But every time we do see them, they are consistently shown as being incompetent.
And, far more often, we do see the effects of their incompetence (see some of the examples I provided above). Many being MAJOR failures on their part.
As said - S31's spotty record is FAR better than what the official intelligence agencies have to show for themselves.
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