Antwerp conference / Romulan-UFP relations

[Cepstrum]

Hello, again, board members. You've been helpful in clearing up some questions and disabusing me of faulty notions. The most nebulous series to me is this one (DS9). Here's my question:

in Homefront, the initial cause for Sisko's recall/promotion is the bombing of the Antwerp Conference. Apparently the attendees of this conference were UFP and Romulan diplomats.

But I thought there were no formal diplomatic relations between these two. Was this meeting a result of the Dominion arriving in the AQ in force? ie, was this a "special meeting" to discuss the arrival of the Dominion, or would it have occurred anyway? TNG made it pretty clear that, because of mutual distrust and enmity, the UFP and Romulans had very little contact and knew very little of each other.

Did the GQ "invasion" change this dynamic? If it did, I wonder why the earlier Borg threat (which also threatened all AQ powers). Why didn't the problem of how to deal with the Borg bring the powers closer, at least temporarily?

 

[Shatinator]

This is a very good question, what is the signifigant differnce between the borg invasion and the dominion war. Perhaps, it could be attributed to that fact the borg were focussed on earth, and the domnion scope was more broad to the AQ itself.

-The Shatinator

 

[T'Girl]

There was a Romulan ambassador present in the office of the Federation president during a Starfleet mliltary briefing in the movie TUC. The conference was between the Fed's and the Romulan's officials, and was described as "high level," which would suggest a relationship, but not necessary a congenial one.

 

[The Wormhole]

I personally viewed the recent breakdown of relations between the Federation and the Klingons as helping diplomatic relations between the Federation and the Romulans. Sort of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

It actually bothered me that Nemesis stated the Federation and Romulans seemed to revert to being enemies again after the Dominion War. After all, if they were working on diplomatic relations before the war, then they eventually form an alliance during the war, you'd think they'd have enough common ground for formalize a diplomatic relationship after the war.

Nemesis redeems itself by depicting the Federation and Romulans discussing peace at the end, though unofortunately that is undone with Trek XI destroying Romulus.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

During Antwerp, it was obvious the federation and romulans were discussing the dominnion threat - as previously established, the romulans took the dominion threat seriously at that point.

After Antwerp and before 'In the pale moonlight', relations with the romulans were frosty.
Apparently, the romulans were stupid enough to be persuaded that the dominion will leave them alone after it was done with the federation/klingons - and this, after the Tal'Shiar tried to genocide the founders.

Considering their pattern of arrogance leading to idiocy, it's not hard to believe that the romulans thought the borg will leave them alone and only give the federation a bloody nose - which is why they were not interested in discussing joint defense against the cyborgs.

 

[Cepstrum]

Hmmm. I guess that's why the Romulans never managed to become a truly Great Power — they're just too paranoid and uncooperative for their own good.

I'm going to ask this in a new thread, but I'll ask it here too, anyway:

It's been made quite clear that *all* non UFP Powers believe the UFP is bafflingly altruistic and almost passive — they mock StarFleet for it, in fact. So why are the Romulans, etc. so untrusting and antagonistic towards the UFP? It's obvious that the UFP is not interested in expansion or threatening its neighbors. Even its ships are not specially suited for battle but for exploration (at least until the Borg threat and Dominion War — though it's notable that they gave up on warships once the Borg threat diminished, before the Dominion War.).

 

[Temis the Vorta]

It's been made quite clear that *all* non UFP Powers believe the UFP is bafflingly altruistic and almost passive — they mock StarFleet for it, in fact.

They certainly mock Starfleet - or at least I recall the Klingons and Andorians (of ENT) scoffing at Starfleet's lack of militarism - but do they really see the UFP as innocuous? And why would they, the way it keeps expanding?

Maybe they see it as a hypocritical organization that says they are all for peace and love, but the minute that, say, the Dominion tells them to stay out of their territory, the UFP gets huffy and denies that the Dominion has the right to claim the territory that it claims, refuses to respect those claims, so it's inevitable that sooner or later, you have a shootin' war (that the poor Romulans get dragged into, through no fault of their own, and in fact through Starfleet murder and duplicity against a supposed ally!!!)

Sounds to me like the UFP is an empire that won't admit it's an empire. If I was their neighbor, I'd keep guns pointed in their direction at all times.

Apparently, the romulans were stupid enough to be persuaded that the dominion will leave them alone after it was done with the federation/klingons - and this, after the Tal'Shiar tried to genocide the founders.

Nah, I think the Rommie strategy was detente with the Dominion in the hopes that the combatants would be so evenly matched that they would cripple each other, leaving the Rommies the most powerful force in either quadrant. Then they strike.

The Rommies knew that the Founders would never forget attempted genocide. But it makes no sense to attack the Dominion when they are strong. Better to allow your other foes to wear the Doms down enough that they will be beatable.

 

[T'Girl]

It's obvious that the UFP is not interested in expansion or threatening its neighbors. Even its ships are not specially suited for battle but for exploration ...

The Enterprise D had two main sections, one was called the saucer section and the other one ... it wasn't call the secondary hull or the engineering section, it was called "The Battle Section."

The Federation fought a protracted war with the Cardassian Union, there no way around referring to it as a war of territorial expansion. Both the Federation and the Union wanted the same chunk of space and the same class-M planets. The Federation is constantly expanding, in 200 odd years they went from less than a half dozen members to over 150.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Apparently, the romulans were stupid enough to be persuaded that the dominion will leave them alone after it was done with the federation/klingons - and this, after the Tal'Shiar tried to genocide the founders.

Nah, I think the Rommie strategy was detente with the Dominion in the hopes that the combatants would be so evenly matched that they would cripple each other, leaving the Rommies the most powerful force in either quadrant. Then they strike.

The Rommies knew that the Founders would never forget attempted genocide. But it makes no sense to attack the Dominion when they are strong. Better to allow your other foes to wear the Doms down enough that they will be beatable.

Not much of a strategy:

By the time of 'In the pale moonlight' the war was going very badly for the federation. And yet, the romulans did not want to enter the war - indeed, they were helping dominion ships destroy federation ones.

The romulans had no problem letting the federation/klingons fall. They most likely thought they could deal with a dominion that simultaneously defeated both the federation and the klingons.
And this, despite Vreenak admitting in 'In the pale moonlight' that the dominion was getting STRONGER (legions of jem'hadar, ships) - not weaker - every day. That the romulan empire would have been surrounded and in a far worse position to defend itself after the dominion defeated the federation/klingons.

The romulans' arrogance led to a severe case of overconfidence. This and the fact that the dominion was attacking its traditional enemies - federation and klingon - meant that the romulan star empire had the foresight of a 2 year old.
Giggling at the sight of the federation falling, idiotically believing that the same won't happen to it a little down the line.

It's obvious that the UFP is not interested in expansion or threatening its neighbors. Even its ships are not specially suited for battle but for exploration ...

The Enterprise D had two main sections, one was called the saucer section and the other one ... it wasn't call the secondary hull or the engineering section, it was called "The Battle Section."

The Federation fought a protracted war with the Cardassian Union, there no way around referring to it as a war of territorial expansion. Both the Federation and the Union wanted the same chunk of space and the same class-M planets. The Federation is constantly expanding, in 200 odd years they went from less than a half dozen members to over 150.

The federation NEVER started a war of conquest- unlike all the other major powers in the quadrant.

These powers only saw what their paranoia and xenophobia made them see. Which MORE THAN EXPLAINS the necessity of 'the battle section'

 

[Timo]

The federation NEVER started a war of conquest

As far as we know. But we failed to see most of the UFP wars on screen.

unlike all the other major powers in the quadrant.

We've never heard of the Romulans starting a war of conquest. Pursuing one, yes. But the beginnings of most wars are unseen to us, with the exception of the Dominion war and the one with the Klingons just before.

And of course, both the Klingons and the Dominion justified their territorial expansion as something else: Klingons were simply taking back what was rightfully theirs (perhaps the UFP had conquered Archanis in the previous one?), Founders were protecting themselves, blah blah. I'm sure the UFP would come up with entertaining rationales for its wars of conquest, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ProtoAvatar]

The federation NEVER started a war of conquest

As far as we know. But we failed to see most of the UFP wars on screen.

But we've heard of them - and not only from federation citizens.
The federation never starting a war of conquest is so heavily implied as to be a certitude.

If one considers trek lit, too, this is even more clear.

unlike all the other major powers in the quadrant.

We've never heard of the Romulans starting a war of conquest. Pursuing one, yes. But the beginnings of most wars are unseen to us, with the exception of the Dominion war and the one with the Klingons just before.

And of course, both the Klingons and the Dominion justified their territorial expansion as something else: Klingons were simply taking back what was rightfully theirs (perhaps the UFP had conquered Archanis in the previous one?), Founders were protecting themselves, blah blah. I'm sure the UFP would come up with entertaining rationales for its wars of conquest, too.

Timo Saloniemi

The klingons and the dominion can justify their conquest wars however they want.
Everyone who bothers to think about them can see through their flimsy excuses aka justifications.

As for the romulans - the Earth-Romulan war - a war of agression on their part.
The klingons - in Ent and TNG we get to see some of their conquered subject species.
The dominion - we don't see much of its gamma quadrant politics. Even so, we saw how they used biological weapons on a world who dared refuse them.

 

[T'Girl]

The Earth-Romulan war began near the vicinity of Earth, The final boundary created at the end of the war was close to Romulus. The Balance of Terror establishes that the Romulan neutral zone is several hours using subspace radio from the Enterprise's. nearest command base. Various novels, tech manuals and ST maps advance the belief that the RNZ is a considerable distance from the center of the Federation and Earth, and that this considerable distance was claimed by the Federation as it's sovereign territory.

Earth and it's allies might not have started the war, however at the war's conclusion the young Federation seems to have been more that happy to retain this conquered territory.

Conquer:
1. To defeat or subdue by force, especially by force of arms.
2. To gain or secure control of by (or as if by) force of arms

.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

First - the romulans started the war. It was their war of agression, of conquest; earth merely defended itself. At the end of the war, earth may very well have chosen to retain advantages bought with the blood of its citizens.

Second - there was not a single romulan in the territories claimed by the federation after the war. The romulans could claim that territory all they want (THIS IS PURE SPECULATION, BTW, backed up by nothing) - but it was an artificial claim, not backed up by them having colonies or anything else in the area.

 

[Braxton]

It is entirely plausible that part of the Romulan strategy might have been their hope that they would be the leaders in a new alliance against the Dominion after the Federation and Klingons were out of the way. This would include the likes of the Gorn, Tholians, Miridorn, Tzenkethi, etc. They were probably banking on the wormhole being off limits to the Dominion so Gamma Quadrant reinforcements were not possible. Such a campaign to take out the Federation and Klingons would require a lot of ships and resources not to mention the need to maintain ships at nearly ever world while they work on securing them in order to quell any kind of uprising from occurring until the necessary occupation forces were in place. The Romulans, in their infinite wisdom, would have foreseen this as the way for them to gain control and be the superpower they always wanted to be. As it would be, their wisdom is their downfall. They try to plan big but something always happens that holds them back.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

It is entirely plausible that part of the Romulan strategy might have been their hope that they would be the leaders in a new alliance against the Dominion after the Federation and Klingons were out of the way. This would include the likes of the Gorn, Tholians, Miridorn, Tzenkethi, etc. They were probably banking on the wormhole being off limits to the Dominion so Gamma Quadrant reinforcements were not possible. Such a campaign to take out the Federation and Klingons would require a lot of ships and resources not to mention the need to maintain ships at nearly ever world while they work on securing them in order to quell any kind of uprising from occurring until the necessary occupation forces were in place. The Romulans, in their infinite wisdom, would have foreseen this as the way for them to gain control and be the superpower they always wanted to be. As it would be, their wisdom is their downfall. They try to plan big but something always happens that holds them back.

Gorn, Tholians, Miridorn, Tzenkethi?
Some of them had their own non-agression treaties with the domminion. The others were obviously no interested in fighting it.
None was ever ameanable to alliances.


the wormhole being off limits to the Dominion so Gamma Quadrant reinforcements were not possible?
A fool's assumption - after the dominion defeats the federation/klingons - and even before - the dominion would control the bajoran system and the wormhole.


The chances of the romulans defeating a dominion victorious over the federation/klingons are low.

But, in their arrogance, the romulans failed to see this. Much as their idiocy prevented them from seeing that they would be next in line after the federation/klingons fall - they allowed themselves to be convinced that the dominion was not pissed off because they tried to genocide the founders.

 

[BolianAuthor]

Actually... the proper name for the 1701-D's secondary hull is the Star Drive Section.

 

[Timo]

First - the romulans started the war. It was their war of agression, of conquest; earth merely defended itself. At the end of the war, earth may very well have chosen to retain advantages bought with the blood of its citizens.

That's just your bigoted opinion, nothing else. None of the Trek heroes or villains establish the Romulans as the party that started the war of "Balance of Terror" fame: they merely say that the war took place, and was a bloody mess that caused both sides to hate each other ever since.

ENT shows the Romulans committing aggressive acts in the timeframe preceding the war. ENT also shows the UE Starfleet committing various aggressive acts, and operating heavily armed warships (for what purpose, is not completely revealed, but at least these aren't protecting Earth colonies or guarding Earth shipping in any ENT episode or reference). ENT doesn't show how the war got started. That is a story to be told at a later date.

Second - there was not a single romulan in the territories claimed by the federation after the war.

Great - so now the UE/CoP/UFP not only started a war of conquest, they also massacred all those conquered Romulans they didn't manage to forcibly relocate! And all this callously without even taking a look at the victims!

The romulans could claim that territory all they want (THIS IS PURE SPECULATION, BTW, backed up by nothing) - but it was an artificial claim, not backed up by them having colonies or anything else in the area.

They had minefields in place in a suggestively named ENT episode...

And legal bickering about the validity of claims is futile when there's no commonly agreed law there. Some of the worst atrocities in history have been committed in the name of self-defense; I find it quite difficult to believe that either United Earth or the Coalition of Planets or the Federation would be categorically above such things, especially since the key players in those organizations are humans, known for their cruelty and aggression.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Timo

You want a general appraisal of the federation's so-called "aggresivity"?
The Garak Quark 'root beer' discussion in 'way of the warrior'.

You want to see why specifically did the romulans start the war? Watch the relevant trilogy in Ent S4. The romulans starting the war is practically established fact.

And, if the federation/starfleet didn't even knew how a romulan looked like by Kirk's time, they massacred none before.

At the end of the war, earth took territory that, most likely, did not belong to the romulans. If it was previously claimed by the romulans, it was definitely NOT inhabited by them and was gained by earth the hard way - payed in blood.

 

[Timo]

You want a general appraisal of the federation's aggresivity?
The Garak Quark 'root beer' discussion in 'way of the warrior'.

Good point. OTOH, that discussion is all about the UFP conquering its neighbors...

You want to see why specifically did the romulans start the war? Watch the relevant trilogy in Ent S4. The romulans starting the war is practically established fact.

So the fact that the French declared war on Germany in 1870 establishes that they were the aggressors in WWII, too?

There's nothing specific to tie the ENT events to the war of "Balance of Terror" fame, at least not until further notice. We don't even have the dates for that war yet. Could have been before "These Are the Voyages", could have been after.

And, if the federation/starfleet didn't even knew how a romulan looked like by Kirk's time, they massacred none before.

While that comment was in jest, it's perfectly possible to massacre people you never see. And if you do massacre people, afterward you probably don't want to advertise the fact that you knew them...

If it was previously claimed by the romulans, it was definitely NOT inhabited by them and was gained by earth the hard way - payed in blood.

So Earthlings did pursue a war of conquest...

Good thing they suffered for it. Serves them right.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Timo

The events from Ent S4 are equivalent to the french declaring war towards the germans in 1937.
The earth romulan war started almost immediately after that romulan attack.
It was precipitated by the romulans attacking a nascent coalition. This was heavily implied each time it was brought up.

Earth fought a defense war against the romulan agression. In the end, it may have retained 'buffer' territories as defense against a continually aggressive empire.
You want to call this 'conquest'? Then each victorious country in history - no matter its reasons for entering the was - fought a conquest war.

And the federation/starfleet did not just kept the secret about the romulan appearance - it didn't know how the romulans looked like.
If a romulan massacre/relocation/bullying/etc ever took place, then the federation/starfleet would have known how the romulans looked like - the federation/starfleet would have researched it for intelligence purposes, at the very least.