Antonia

[EnriqueH]

Did the Generations people (i.e. Berman, Braga, etc.) ever explain why they went with Antonia instead of Edith Keeler, Janet Wallace or any other of the established love interests for Kirk?

I would've thought having Edith Keeler at the top of that hill would've been a powerful moment.

Made doubly so by Kirk's decision to walk away, making it more sorrowful and heroic.

What if Kirk's last words weren't, "Oh, my." but "Edith..."

Damn.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Joan Collins was unavailable or cost too much? I don't know, I'm just guessing. I never understood the Antonia bit, either. To me, Edith Keeler, Carol Marcus, Gillian Taylor, or even Miramanee would have made more sense.

 

[EnriqueH]

They didn't even have to show Joan Collins...they could've easily CGI'd her in the distance, no different from how Antonia was presented.

 

[USS Triumphant]

They didn't even have to show Joan Collins...they could've easily CGI'd her in the distance, no different from how Antonia was presented.

Maybe that's why: if it had been a previously known named character, we would have wanted to see her. I know I would've. Heck, I kinda halfway wanted to see Antonia, just to get a feel for this character that outclassed everyone else we mentioned in Kirk's wishes.

 

[EnriqueH]

I think having Edith in the background like Antonia would've made her a ghostly figure...in the distance...unattainable...until Kirk fulfills his destiny...

 

[Gaith]

If I may quote myself...

Well, maybe the Nexus "wants" its inhabitants to never leave? And to do so, it makes them forget who they are as much as possible... Ergo, it takes vague, emotional desires (family, an earthy, work-filled retirement) and creates scenarios based on those tones rather than facts or specific memories. The Nexus thus doesn't care about Edith Keeler or Picard's interest archeological history, and it certainly doesn't want its captures thinking very much, or brushing up against an uncanny valley effect.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

They didn't even have to show Joan Collins...they could've easily CGI'd her in the distance, no different from how Antonia was presented.

I doubt they could've used Collins' likeness without her permission. There are rules against that sort thing.

Well, maybe the Nexus "wants" its inhabitants to never leave? And to do so, it makes them forget who they are as much as possible... Ergo, it takes vague, emotional desires (family, an earthy, work-filled retirement) and creates scenarios based on those tones rather than facts or specific memories. The Nexus thus doesn't care about Edith Keeler or Picard's interest archeological history, and it certainly doesn't want its captures thinking very much, or brushing up against an uncanny valley effect.

I like this idea. A clever extrapolation from the facts the movie presents to us.

Personally, I've long been of the opinion that Antonia (and Kirk's temporary retirement) were both imaginary. I think she was someone that Kirk might've met in passing or never got to be introduced to who became a symbol of a great "might have been" in Kirk's life.

Sort of like this monologue from Bernstein in Citizen Kane:

"A fellow will remember a lot of things you wouldn't think he'd remember. You take me. One day, back in 1896, I was crossing over to Jersey on the ferry, and as we pulled out, there was another ferry pulling in, and on it there was a girl waiting to get off. A white dress she had on. She was carrying a white parasol. I only saw her for one second. She didn't see me at all, but I'll bet a month hasn't gone by since that I haven't thought of that girl."

 

[T'Girl]

I would've thought having Edith Keeler at the top of that hill would've been a powerful moment..

They didn't want to send a royalty check to Harlan Ellison.

And then have him sue them.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

IIRC, it was Paramount who decreed that a new character be invented for this scene.

 

[Greg Cox]

I would've gone for Carol Marcus.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I thought about that, but I don't see Kirk wanting to resign from Starfleet on Carol's behalf like he almost did with Antonia.

It seems clear that Kirk and Carol had some kind of falling out - whether it was just her pregnancy, or something else, we don't know. I just didn't get the sense that Kirk was that excited about spending his entire life with Carol. If they had ever married, I suspect it wouldn't have ended well.

 

[borgboy]

You have no idea what a major pet peeve this is for me - this and Picard's Victorian Christmas fantasy.
Seeing their idea of their perfect life, their perfect mate, it would be controversial to some fans no matter what they did, but I feel like the writer didn't understand the characters to give them the lives we saw.
Kirk with Edith would've been powerful and meaningful, even if we never see her. If Edith absolutely couldn't have been used, then it should've been Carol Marcus, with David around too - possibly a young Carol with David as a small child, as the family he never had. Instead, we're told some woman we've never heard of was the most important woman in his heart, or whatever, thus devaluing relationships that we had followed and were invested in.

Picard wanting a family, I could understand that. It does infuriate me though that his wife was just some random woman. It should've been Beverly. Of course, Beverly got ignored all thru the movies anyways. They should've been building their relationship all thru the movies anyways and they should've married by Nemesis if not sooner - Nemesis was depressing enough, if they'd had Picard and Beverly commit to each other, with Wesley completing their family, it could've brought some much needed balance to the story. Instead of everyone drifting away from Picard, by having him starting a new relationship there could've been something uplifting to counter Data's death and so many other characters leaving the Enterprise. Don't even get me started on the weak romance Picard had in Insurrection that no one cared about as far as I know.

 

[EnriqueH]

I would've thought having Edith Keeler at the top of that hill would've been a powerful moment..

They didn't want to send a royalty check to Harlan Ellison.

And then have him sue them.

Makes sense!

IIRC, it was Paramount who decreed that a new character be invented for this scene.

I would've gone for Carol Marcus.

^ I thought about that, but I don't see Kirk wanting to resign from Starfleet on Carol's behalf like he almost did with Antonia.

It seems clear that Kirk and Carol had some kind of falling out - whether it was just her pregnancy, or something else, we don't know. I just didn't get the sense that Kirk was that excited about spending his entire life with Carol. If they had ever married, I suspect it wouldn't have ended well.

Yeah, I'm not opposed to Carol Marcus---after all, I really enjoyed her character and thought Bibi Besch had great chemistry with Shatner.

However, I also had the idea that they were mostly intimate friends rather than romantic.

You can see their affection, but you can also sense their separation.

Still! No reason why there couldn't have been a rekindling!

I thought the Generations scene begged for a blast from the past.

Antonia makes Kirk a stranger to us. We've just spent over 25 years with Kirk, and never even heard of Antonia.

I don't like that.

 

[Greg Cox]

Then again, it could've been worse. Could have been Janice Lester.

But, yeah, I suspect that pretty much every Trekkie in the audience was scratching their heads and going "Antonia who?"

Heck, I would've settled for Janice Rand!

 

[borgboy]

I would've thought having Edith Keeler at the top of that hill would've been a powerful moment..

They didn't want to send a royalty check to Harlan Ellison.

And then have him sue them.

Makes sense!

I would've gone for Carol Marcus.

^ I thought about that, but I don't see Kirk wanting to resign from Starfleet on Carol's behalf like he almost did with Antonia.

It seems clear that Kirk and Carol had some kind of falling out - whether it was just her pregnancy, or something else, we don't know. I just didn't get the sense that Kirk was that excited about spending his entire life with Carol. If they had ever married, I suspect it wouldn't have ended well.

Yeah, I'm not opposed to Carol Marcus---after all, I really enjoyed her character and thought Bibi Besch had great chemistry with Shatner.

However, I also had the idea that they were mostly intimate friends rather than romantic.

You can see their affection, but you can also sense their separation.

Still! No reason why there couldn't have been a rekindling!

I thought the Generations scene begged for a blast from the past.

Antonia makes Kirk a stranger to us. We've just spent over 25 years with Kirk, and never even heard of Antonia.

I don't like that.

I agree completely.
My thought would be to include young David with Kirk and a younger Carol as a family. So it's not just about Carol, it's about the son he lost, the family he didn't get to have. That's way more powerful, touching and relevant to me than throwing in some random woman we've never heard of.
Janice Rand would've still been much better than bringing in Antonia Who? At least that would've built on his history. That lack of history with what we saw in the Nexus is a big part of why it failed.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Not much chance of Carol Marcus or David Marcus showing up, as Merritt Butrick had died even before SIVI had been made. Bibi Besch was still alive and working, but she would die of complications from breast cancer in 1996.

And I think showing a younger Carol probably would've just made it look like Kirk was robbing the cradle.

 

[Melakon]

Heck, I would've settled for Janice Rand!

That's Janice "No Beach To Walk On" Rand.

 

[Khan 2.0]

what if it had been Savvik

maybe they could've had Spock and Bones instead of a woman. like something like the campfire scene. would make sense as Generations marked the return of TFFs Captain Shatner (then again I doubt Nimoy and Kelly would've wanted to return that way)

 

[CorporalClegg]

Keeler would have been the best choice, thematically, because it would have shown just how powerful the Nexus really was at making the impossible possible.

Antonia, or even Carol, is just appeasing to regret and, as such, is rather mundane.

Not only that, they could have gone the extra mile with the set design.

 

[Khan 2.0]

the reason it wasn't Edith Keeler is Rick Berman was going 'whos this Edith...why that name?' and there simply was no time to explain