Antimatter converter assembly?

[blssdwlf]

Timo, is that you?

But seriously, that would require an internal reactor and many metres of super-conduit snaking throughout the ship. OK for TMP with it's cutting edge tech, but less so for TOS (IMO)

LOL - the Timo joke flew over my head but I was just imagining what you wrote . What if the TWOK crystal room was basically a compact version of the TOS engine room with the octagonal thingy and the transparent wall of the crystal room was the equivalent of the grill looking into the forced-perspective pipes? It's just reversed...

Agreed - now that I know there's crystals in there it seems to be a simple update of the octagonal "thingy" in the middle of the TOS Engineering Set...which is strange, given that the layout of Engineering has undergone a complete new paradigm!

 

[Mytran]

LOL - the Timo joke flew over my head but I was just imagining what you wrote .

Sorry, that was rather obscure! Timo has offered a similar model several times in attempt to explain that the engineering setup in Trek is basically the same from ENT to TNG, just with different levels of shielding around the reactor (even placing it under the floor) as safety technology improves, until we get to the transparent materials of TMP onwards.

What if the TWOK crystal room was basically a compact version of the TOS engine room with the octagonal thingy and the transparent wall of the crystal room was the equivalent of the grill looking into the forced-perspective pipes? It's just reversed...

Interesting concept - although it does rather imply that every time Scotty fished out a dilithium paddle to inspect it in TOS he flooded the Engine Room with radiation!
Maybe that happened one too many times, thus leading to the area being cordoned off behind glass in the corner?

One thing is clear - the pedestal thingy seems to have nothing to do with the M/AM reaction (since as has been observed, the energy in the conduit doesn't change) and so is more likely connected to the inertial dampening and structural integrity systems instead, much like my preferred TOS model. That alone would seem to disqualify it for the "Timo" model of continuous tech

 

[DanGovier]

Something I just noticed whilst re-watching TWOK is that the reactor room has a bunch of tubes that move in and out of the wall. Perhaps these work like fuel rods on a nuclear reactor, moving back and forth to control/balance the M/AM reaction? And if that's the case, could they perhaps have a dilithium component to them? For them to be a moving part, they are either reacting to something, or perhaps having an impact on something.

 

[blssdwlf]

That's a good observation Dan!

Those light rods are retracted at the beginning of the movie during the inspection.
1. We don't see them again until later in the nebula, after Khan hits the port torpedo bay.
2. When Scotty takes the mains off-line due to radiation (which at this time the "energiser is bypassed like a christmas tree") all the rods are extended out and the lights at the tip are blinking.
3. When Spock goes into the room he raises all the rods.
4. When all the rods are up, the lights at the tips are steady.
5. He pops off the dilithium cap does some stuff and the moment he puts the cap back on the mains are back online and they warp away.

Since Spock manually moves them back up at #3 while in the room I don't think they are meant to control any M/AM reaction since the operator would be in significant danger just to operate it. They also don't all face the dilithium cap if they are meant to collect energy from the dilithium.

They could be essentially giant circuit breakers that were popped out when Scotty bypassed the energizer and Spock re-connected them when he retracted them back in. They have a certain resemblance to the mysterious cylinders in the engine room in "Space Seed" where Kirk pummels Khan with one.

Something I just noticed whilst re-watching TWOK is that the reactor room has a bunch of tubes that move in and out of the wall. Perhaps these work like fuel rods on a nuclear reactor, moving back and forth to control/balance the M/AM reaction? And if that's the case, could they perhaps have a dilithium component to them? For them to be a moving part, they are either reacting to something, or perhaps having an impact on something.

 

[TIN_MAN]

That is a good catch Dan.
I like the idea that these are some sort of control rods, but not sure how that could be justified with a M/A-M reactor.

And Blsswlf beat me to it on their recalling the cylinders from Space Seed.

 

[Mytran]

First we get an updated TOS crystal holder, now we get updated "Kahn clubs"!
I used to think of the TWOK control room as little more than a plot device to give Spock somewhere to die, but I'm liking it more and more every day now

 

[TIN_MAN]

I was thinking about the "points" mentioned in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and Gary's line about "those points have about decayed to lead" and then there's Scotty's line from "The Paradise Syndrome" when he laments "that Vulcan won't be satisfied until these panels are a puddle of lead."
Since it seems unlikely that Scotty could be referring to the control panels -which almost certainly would not be made of lead- what if he was referring to the "slab" or "paddle" form of the dilithium crystals which decay or deteriorate into lead if they are burnt out or melted?
Perhaps the "points" in WNMHGB were originally "lithium" crystal rods and were what was used in the "power packs" at that time period, destined to be upgraded to the dilithium panels we see later?

 

[Mytran]

Possibly, but the accompanying dialogue strongly indicates a connection with the Impulse Engines:

MITCHELL: You'd better check the starboard impulse packs. Those points have about decayed to lead.
KELSO: Oh, yeah, sure, Mitch.
MITCHELL: I'm not joking, Lee! You activate those packs, and you'll blow the whole impulse deck.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Possibly, but the accompanying dialogue strongly indicates a connection with the Impulse Engines:

Ha! I knew somebody was gonna bring that up.

But that's not necessarily a deal-breaker, at least not for me, since I've pretty much satisfied myself that the "Engineering Section" -as seen in the 2nd and 3rd season- is in the Impulse Deck (as opposed the 1st season "Engineering Deck" -in the secondary hull).

And besides, even if Mitchell and Kelso were talking about something completely different, Scotty's line could still indicate that "panels" is the correct technical term for what some fans are want to call dilithium "slabs" or "paddles"?

 

[Mytran]

Ha! I knew somebody was gonna bring that up.

Yet again, it's me who's "that guy"

But that's not necessarily a deal-breaker, at least not for me, since I've pretty much satisfied myself that the "Engineering Section" -as seen in the 2nd and 3rd season- is in the Impulse Deck (as opposed the 1st season "Engineering Deck" -in the secondary hull).

Strange, I picture it the opposite way around!
So, for you the main dilithium power converter systems are located in the saucer? If the main reactors are in the nacelles, isn't that a rather long way to transfer the raw energy? Or do you envision the M/AM reactor to be in the saucer - in which case, why have an Engineering Hull at all?

And besides, even if Mitchell and Kelso were talking about something completely different, Scotty's line could still indicate that "panels" is the correct technical term for what some fans are want to call dilithium "slabs" or "paddles"?

Got no argument from me there, at least

 

[blssdwlf]

But that's not necessarily a deal-breaker, at least not for me, since I've pretty much satisfied myself that the "Engineering Section" -as seen in the 2nd and 3rd season- is in the Impulse Deck (as opposed the 1st season "Engineering Deck" -in the secondary hull).

Hmmm - "Engineering Section" is referred to in all 3 seasons. Not only that, in "Day of the Dove", Kang captures the "engineering section" and when the pinwheel entity leaves it's from the secondary hull...

 

[TIN_MAN]

Hmmm - "Engineering Section" is referred to in all 3 seasons. Not only that, in "Day of the Dove", Kang captures the "engineering section" and when the pinwheel entity leaves it's from the secondary hull...

When was the term "Engineering Section" used in the 1st season, and how often and in what context(s)?

"Day of the Dove" is a can of worms for several reasons, not only does the dialogue and SPX contradict each other, but the live action elements are contradictory as well. Best to take this episode with a grain of salt and keep in mind that, at the end of the day, this really is just a TV show after all.

I'll have to double check, but I don't think "DOTD" specifies the "Engineering Section" as such, only using the more general term "engineering" throughout.

In any case, that dang thing that houses the dilithium had me wanting to place that room it in the secondary hull for a long time as well, but the dialogue is actually pretty consistent across the series to the effect that the Engineering Section is most likely in the Impulse Deck. I know that sounds wonky, but I'm sure I'll be explaining myself in due course.

 

[blssdwlf]

@TIN_MAN - sure, here's a list of all the times "engineering section" was said in dialogue in chronological order.

I only mention TDOTD because although the crew's memories and perceptions are messed with, we as the viewer supposedly are not affected and we see the entity leave the "engineering section" and exit the secondary hull. This places at least one "engineering section" in the secondary hull. "The Apple" has multiple engineering sections. "The Ultimate Computer" has an interesting bit where the Exeter's engineering section was hit and damaged their impulse engines. That could mean the engineering section refers to impulse engines or it could mean that both systems are counted as part of the section and Spock saw that the impulse portion got hit. In "The Omega Glory" I believe they showed multiple engineering room sets (one with Kirk's party and one empty).

4 Mudds Women: SULU: Captain Kirk, engineering section reports our entire life-support system is now on batteries.

24 Space Seed: SPOCK [OC]: Captain, acknowledge. Unable to flood Engineering section. I suspect
24 Space Seed: SCOTT [OC]: This is Scott. Captain's headed for the Engineering section. I'll follow in case

38 The Apple: SCOTT [OC]: I'll have all engineering sections working on the circuits immediately. Transporter'll be ready in an hour.

39 Mirror Mirror: SPOCK: Explain computer activity in the engineering section.

41 I Mudd: KIRK: Scotty? Security, the intruder is in the engineering section. Have all units converge on that point.

44 Journey to Babel: KIRK: This is the engineering section. There are a number of emergency back-up systems for the main controls. Over here are a number of control computers.

53 The Ultimate Computer: WESLEY: You've been chosen to test the M-5, Jim. There'll be a series of routine research and contact problems for the M-5 to solve,plus navigational maneuvers and the war games problem. If the M-5 works under actual conditions as well as it has under simulated tests,it will mean a revolution in space technology as great as warp drive. When your crew has been removed, the ship's engineering section will be modified to contain the computer.
53 The Ultimate Computer: SPOCK: Hit in engineering section. Possible damage to her impulse engines. She's still maneuverable on warp drive.

54 The Omega Glory: SPOCK: We're locked onto the Exeter's engineering section, Captain.
54 The Omega Glory: KIRK: This is Captain Kirk of the USS Enterprise. Is anyone on board? If there is, and you can hear me, please respond by intercom to the engineering section.

57 Elaan of Troyius: SPOCK [OC]: Spock here, Captain. I am triangulating now. It's coming from the engineering section.

66 The Day of The Dove: KANG [OC]: I have captured your engineering section. I now control this ship's power and life-support systems.
66 The Day of The Dove: SPOCK: Alien detected in the engineering section, near reactor number three.

 

[TIN_MAN]

@TIN_MAN - sure, here's a list of all the times "engineering section" was said in dialogue in chronological order.

I only mention TDOTD because although the crew's memories and perceptions are messed with, we as the viewer supposedly are not affected and we see the entity leave the "engineering section" and exit the secondary hull. This places at least one "engineering section" in the secondary hull. "The Apple" has multiple engineering sections. "The Ultimate Computer" has an interesting bit where the Exeter's engineering section was hit and damaged their impulse engines. That could mean the engineering section refers to impulse engines or it could mean that both systems are counted as part of the section and Spock saw that the impulse portion got hit. In "The Omega Glory" I believe they showed multiple engineering room sets (one with Kirk's party and one empty).

4 Mudds Women: SULU: Captain Kirk, engineering section reports our entire life-support system is now on batteries.

24 Space Seed: SPOCK [OC]: Captain, acknowledge. Unable to flood Engineering section. I suspect
24 Space Seed: SCOTT [OC]: This is Scott. Captain's headed for the Engineering section. I'll follow in case

38 The Apple: SCOTT [OC]: I'll have all engineering sections working on the circuits immediately. Transporter'll be ready in an hour.

39 Mirror Mirror: SPOCK: Explain computer activity in the engineering section.

41 I Mudd: KIRK: Scotty? Security, the intruder is in the engineering section. Have all units converge on that point.

44 Journey to Babel: KIRK: This is the engineering section. There are a number of emergency back-up systems for the main controls. Over here are a number of control computers.

53 The Ultimate Computer: WESLEY: You've been chosen to test the M-5, Jim. There'll be a series of routine research and contact problems for the M-5 to solve,plus navigational maneuvers and the war games problem. If the M-5 works under actual conditions as well as it has under simulated tests,it will mean a revolution in space technology as great as warp drive. When your crew has been removed, the ship's engineering section will be modified to contain the computer.
53 The Ultimate Computer: SPOCK: Hit in engineering section. Possible damage to her impulse engines. She's still maneuverable on warp drive.

54 The Omega Glory: SPOCK: We're locked onto the Exeter's engineering section, Captain.
54 The Omega Glory: KIRK: This is Captain Kirk of the USS Enterprise. Is anyone on board? If there is, and you can hear me, please respond by intercom to the engineering section.

57 Elaan of Troyius: SPOCK [OC]: Spock here, Captain. I am triangulating now. It's coming from the engineering section.

66 The Day of The Dove: KANG [OC]: I have captured your engineering section. I now control this ship's power and life-support systems.
66 The Day of The Dove: SPOCK: Alien detected in the engineering section, near reactor number three.

Thanks for being so thorough blssdwlf, but I’ll address myself mainly to those 1st season episodes since the 2nd and 3rd seasons don’t present a problem for my theory –save perhaps the reference from “The Apple” which I think is a minor issue.

4 Mudd’s Women: SULU: Captain Kirk, engineering section reports our entire life-support system is now on batteries.

Okay, but we’re not actually shown this location so it could still be the term for the impulse engine room?

24 Space Seed: SPOCK [OC]: Captain, acknowledge. Unable to flood Engineering section

24 Space Seed: SCOTT [OC]: This is Scott. Captain's headed for the Engineering section.

Okay, admittedly I missed this one and it is a bit of a problem, so I’ll fall back on my default position here and say that there are indeed two engine rooms that are nearly identical, that is, the Engineering Section in the Impulse Deck and the "Engine[ering] Control Room" in the Engineering Deck and both were later updated -again to nearly identical specs.

38 The Apple: SCOTT [OC]: I'll have all engineering sections working on the circuits immediately.

Okay, but here I think were dealing with a general term for all engineering divisions as opposed the proper term “Engineering Section” per se. For instance, we know that there are engineering divisions on various decks throughout the ship such as deck 3, deck 5, possibly deck7, and deck 14” not to mention the enigmatic “B Deck”.

39 Mirror Mirror: SPOCK: Explain computer activity in the engineering section.

No problem. But this does suggest a specific location, not a large general area.

41 I Mudd: KIRK: Scotty? Security, the intruder is in the engineering section. Have all units converge on that point.

This supports my theory since it proves that the Engineering Section is a specific point within the ship and not a large general area, and therefore not synonymous with the Secondary or Engineering Hull.

44 Journey to Babel: KIRK: This is the engineering section. There are a number of emergency back-up systems for the main controls. Over here are a number of control computers.

No problem. In fact, there’s a name plate on the door reading “ENGINEERING SECTION” as opposed to the 1st season set that had “ENGINEERING CONTROL ROOM” on the name plate, which IMHO strongly indicates two different proper names for two different areas.

53 The Ultimate Computer: WESLEY: You've been chosen to test the M-5, Jim. There'll be a series of routine research and contact problems for the M-5 to solve,plus navigational maneuvers and the war games problem. If the M-5 works under actual conditions as well as it has under simulated tests,it will mean a revolution in space technology as great as warp drive. When your crew has been removed, the ship's engineering section will be modified to contain the computer.
53 The Ultimate Computer: SPOCK: Hit in engineering section. Possible damage to her impulse engines. She's still maneuverable on warp drive.

No problem. In fact I think Occam’s Razor applies here; Spock speculates damage to the impulse engines because it is the location of the Engineering Section -which was hit.

54 The Omega Glory: SPOCK: We're locked onto the Exeter's engineering section, Captain.
54 The Omega Glory: KIRK: This is Captain Kirk of the USS Enterprise. Is anyone on board? If there is, and you can hear me, please respond by intercom to the engineering section.

Aside from the stock footage of the (empty) engine room set inserted at this point to indicate one of various different areas of the ship; It’s important to point out that later -while Kirk is still in the Engineering Section- Spock and a crewman search the rest of the ship and he reports from “the lower levels”, which are here associated with the Shuttlecraft/Hangar Bay, and thus the Secondary Hull. So ergo, Kirk and the Engineering Section must be in the “upper levels” or Primary Hull. Furthermore, the stock footage of the empty engine room could represent the “Engineering Control Room” on the “Engineering Deck” -associated previously with “the lower levels” (in “TEW”) and therefore the Secondary Hull.

57 Elaan of Troyius: SPOCK [OC]: Spock here, Captain. I am triangulating now. It's coming from the engineering section.

No problem.

66 The Day of The Dove: KANG [OC]: I have captured your engineering section. I now control this ship's power and life-support systems.
66 The Day of The Dove: SPOCK: Alien detected in the engineering section, near reactor number three.

There’s so much contradiction between the dialogue and the SPFX in this episode that this deserves special attention -which I’ll save for later.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

Yes, certainly there were some changes. And I think it's reasonable to assume some upgrades. As far as the exterior arrangement goes, I fall into the obscure "Enterprise could transform" camp. I think the bridge module could go up and down. The deflector could change size, spikes and balls on either end of the nacelles could extend, etc. I think this best takes into account the reuse of old footage throughout the series. Granted, as I said earlier there are some things you have to squint at, but frequent reuse of footage through out the series is hardly something you can just squint away

It makes sense for the Enterprise to be able to change its appearance slightly, as not only does it fit with the active style of TOS, it sets the precedent for Voyager's folding wings. Watching for the first time as a young kid, I did not notice the Bridge Dome differences, bit I thought that the retraction of the nacelle spikes, rear endcap balls and varying size of the deflector dish was being done on purpose for the drama, and just that on a low budget the filmmakers could not show the actual changes. Has anyone done a shot by shot of when each piece of footage is sued to catalogue the functional reason for each change? For example, maybe the spikes extend when certain messages are being sent from Communications?

@TIN_MAN - sure, here's a list of all the times "engineering section" was said in dialogue in chronological order.

I only mention TDOTD because although the crew's memories and perceptions are messed with, we as the viewer supposedly are not affected and we see the entity leave the "engineering section" and exit the secondary hull. This places at least one "engineering section" in the secondary hull. "The Apple" has multiple engineering sections. "The Ultimate Computer" has an interesting bit where the Exeter's engineering section was hit and damaged their impulse engines. That could mean the engineering section refers to impulse engines or it could mean that both systems are counted as part of the section and Spock saw that the impulse portion got hit. In "The Omega Glory" I believe they showed multiple engineering room sets (one with Kirk's party and one empty).

4 Mudds Women: SULU: Captain Kirk, engineering section reports our entire life-support system is now on batteries.

24 Space Seed: SPOCK [OC]: Captain, acknowledge. Unable to flood Engineering section. I suspect
24 Space Seed: SCOTT [OC]: This is Scott. Captain's headed for the Engineering section. I'll follow in case

38 The Apple: SCOTT [OC]: I'll have all engineering sections working on the circuits immediately. Transporter'll be ready in an hour.

39 Mirror Mirror: SPOCK: Explain computer activity in the engineering section.

41 I Mudd: KIRK: Scotty? Security, the intruder is in the engineering section. Have all units converge on that point.

44 Journey to Babel: KIRK: This is the engineering section. There are a number of emergency back-up systems for the main controls. Over here are a number of control computers.



53 The Ultimate Computer: WESLEY: You've been chosen to test the M-5, Jim. There'll be a series of routine research and contact problems for the M-5 to solve,plus navigational maneuvers and the war games problem. If the M-5 works under actual conditions as well as it has under simulated tests,it will mean a revolution in space technology as great as warp drive. When your crew has been removed, the ship's engineering section will be modified to contain the computer.
53 The Ultimate Computer: SPOCK: Hit in engineering section. Possible damage to her impulse engines. She's still maneuverable on warp drive.

54 The Omega Glory: SPOCK: We're locked onto the Exeter's engineering section, Captain.
54 The Omega Glory: KIRK: This is Captain Kirk of the USS Enterprise. Is anyone on board? If there is, and you can hear me, please respond by intercom to the engineering section.

57 Elaan of Troyius: SPOCK [OC]: Spock here, Captain. I am triangulating now. It's coming from the engineering section.

66 The Day of The Dove: KANG [OC]: I have captured your engineering section. I now control this ship's power and life-support systems.
66 The Day of The Dove: SPOCK: Alien detected in the engineering section, near reactor number three.

Here's a way to perhaps get all this to relate, in surprisingly few sentences.

--Warp Core=Energizer=Intermix Shaft

Warp Plasma does not consist of a 1/1 ratio of matter/antimatter, but instead has some high-energy mixture of both, "intermixed" together, which is why it is plasma.

The power of the Enterprise can regenerate indefinitely as long as the bussards can take in new matter. Energy from the dilithium crystals is used in a syncrotron to convert collected matter to antimatter for the reaction, which in turn is used to re-engergize the crystals.

In TWOK, the warp drive is cut off when the doors come down and block the Horizontal Intermix Shaft. The Vertical Intermix Shaft is still operative, because they have phasers, and bypassing was necessary to keep it in operation while the Horizontal Intermix Shaft is blocked off. Spock uses a warp power flow access port which exists because one cannot physically enter the main Energizer.

Lithium=Dilithium, sort of

The Lithium and Dilithium crystals both focus and direct energy throughout the ship. Regardless of name, they are grey early on and again in TAS, but are pink in most of TOS, and grey again from the movies onward. They do the same job, but different types of crystals are different colors, and go by different names. LT Masters, a blueshirt engineer, may be on the Enterprise in that one episode, with a room full of pink crystals just because she is adapting them to the ship and testing their effectiveness.

Scotty's claim in TAS that "thousands of connections" are broken does not mean there are thousands of crystal circuits, but that all ships warp and impulse power is initially routed to various systems through these few crystals, which is why they have limited impulse power and weapons while warp drive is down.

--Secondary Hull=Engineering Hull

The Engineering Hull is, in this theory, basically a glorified nacelle, containing another "Engineering Deck," behind which we can see the Horizontal part of the Intermix Shaft. There could be another crystal in this room, we just don't see it.. The could even be in the big Standby Power Units, each of which looks like it might possibly contain another small intermix shaft. In fact there might be three of these rooms, one in each nacelle or engineering hulls. But the one we see is down in the secondary hull, because that is what dialogue indicates.

--Engineering Section=Impulse Deck?

The "Engineering Section," as shown in seasons 2-3 is in the saucer at the top of a vertical intermix shaft, where Warp and Impulse power-flows meet, so that they can both be used to power various shipboard functions. Though in the saucer, M-5 uses a beam to connect to a nearby warp power flow access point the same type of room where Spock sacrifices himself, just in a different location.

In some episodes, the crystal can be removed because it is controlling the flow of power to various ship systems, and while still in its little cylinder it can still do this despite being removed from the Impulse Syncrotron. The TMP version does not have this room because the large Impulse Deflection Crystal, visible outside the ship, can do this now.

Phasers and Photon Torpedoes in TOS are powered from Impulse Power, not Warp, but drawing too much power from the crystal would still burn it up and not allow any drive system still working to be able to power anything else on the ship.

Thoughts? Did I get most of these theories to work together in a simple but consistent way?

 

[blssdwlf]

The "Engineering Section," as shown in seasons 2-3 is in the saucer at the top of a vertical intermix shaft, where Warp and Impulse power-flows meet, so that they can both be used to power various shipboard functions.

The engine room/engineering section you refer to is too tall to fit in the rim area of the saucer. So if you are imagining that a vertical intermix shaft can run up the neck to the bottom of the engine room it's not possible. Now if the room was moved well forward into the saucer and the shaft then turned horizontal into the saucer then yes that physically could work.

In anycase, "The Day of the Dove" does point to an engineering section in the engineering hull.

I personally think there are multiple engineering sections and rooms (as said in dialogue in "The Apple" and "The Naked Time" but only one location for the crystals.

Phasers and Photon Torpedoes in TOS are powered from Impulse Power, not Warp, but drawing too much power from the crystal would still burn it up and not allow any drive system still working to be able to power anything else on the ship.

What we do know is that in TOS is that the phasers can draw their energy from both warp and/or impulse power systems with the potential to burn that system out. In "The Paradise Syndrome" overuse of phaser power burnt out the warp drive so if it was actually powered by impulse power then it should have burnt that out instead. It doesn't sound like a dilithium burnout because Scotty needed a repair base to fix the stardrive.

The TMP Enterprise does something special where the phaser energy takes an extra step and is channeled through the main engines before firing to increase power. By TWOK this extra step doesn't appear to be a potential bottleneck anymore as she was able to fire with main engines down using only batteries.

Thoughts? Did I get most of these theories to work together in a simple but consistent way?

Interesting ideas @Mres_was_framed. Concepts and loose technical details work best with TOS as it was fairly nebulous in explaining how things worked (unlike TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT) so there is alot of leeway as long as it doesn't break dialogue or story.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Just a quick note; I'm not as much of a "Thermion" as some folks are so in my "head canon" the 2nd/3rd season engineering section doesn't have a curved ceiling since we never get a good look at it anyway and is therefore just flat as seen in FJ's blues, so I think it will fit in that impulse engine area. However a curved ceiling -like that of the shuttlecraft hangar bay- does exist on the 1st season engineering deck as made blatantly obvious in "The Enemy Within", which in my opinion helps to pin down it's location at the top two levels of the secondary hull and thus why the lower level could also be considered "B" deck.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

The engine room/engineering section you refer to is too tall to fit in the rim area of the saucer. So if you are imagining that a vertical intermix shaft can run up the neck to the bottom of the engine room it's not possible. Now if the room was moved well forward into the saucer and the shaft then turned horizontal into the saucer then yes that physically could work.

In anycase, "The Day of the Dove" does point to an engineering section in the engineering hull.

I personally think there are multiple engineering sections and rooms (as said in dialogue in "The Apple" and "The Naked Time" but only one location for the crystals.



What we do know is that in TOS is that the phasers can draw their energy from both warp and/or impulse power systems with the potential to burn that system out. In "The Paradise Syndrome" overuse of phaser power burnt out the warp drive so if it was actually powered by impulse power then it should have burnt that out instead. It doesn't sound like a dilithium burnout because Scotty needed a repair base to fix the stardrive.

The TMP Enterprise does something special where the phaser energy takes an extra step and is channeled through the main engines before firing to increase power. By TWOK this extra step doesn't appear to be a potential bottleneck anymore as she was able to fire with main engines down using only batteries.



Interesting ideas @Mres_was_framed. Concepts and loose technical details work best with TOS as it was fairly nebulous in explaining how things worked (unlike TNG/DS9/VOY/ENT) so there is alot of leeway as long as it doesn't break dialogue or story.

Just a quick note; I'm not as much of a "Thermion" as some folks are so in my "head canon" the 2nd/3rd season engineering section doesn't have a curved ceiling since we never get a good look at it anyway and is therefore just flat as seen in FJ's blues, so I think it will fit in that impulse engine area. However a curved ceiling -like that of the shuttlecraft hangar bay- does exist on the 1st season engineering deck as made blatantly obvious in "The Enemy Within", which in my opinion helps to pin down it's location at the top two levels of the secondary hull and thus why the lower level could also be considered "B" deck.

Great points and thanks for the compliments Yes, I'm visualizing the Engineering Section as depicted in the FJSTM, and at two decks, it would fit decks 6 and 7 at the outer rim, but then the area behind the grating would have to be the thinner square area with Impulse vents the protrudes from the back of the saucer.

As far as the neck being too thin, I am imagining a thin power transfer conduit running up the saucer somewhat like the one Drexler put in his Defiant Master Systems Display. It would not have to be winder than the Impulse Syncrotron on the floor.

"The Paradise Syndrome" includes some of my favorite Scotty moments, and it would be great to pin down exactly why the phasers shut down the warp drive when TMP claims warp-powered phasers were a new thing. That's why I have been presenting the theory that the TOS Enterprise could use its Warp engines to reduce its mass and combine that with Impulse Power for sub-light travel. Maybe the dilithum crystal visible on set control this interaction? At least it would justify there being some reason for the Engineering section to be in the saucer, ans Franz Joseph said. Otherwise, his choice to put it there just does not make sense to me.

 

[blssdwlf]

Just a quick note; I'm not as much of a "Thermion" as some folks are so in my "head canon" the 2nd/3rd season engineering section doesn't have a curved ceiling since we never get a good look at it anyway and is therefore just flat as seen in FJ's blues, so I think it will fit in that impulse engine area. However a curved ceiling -like that of the shuttlecraft hangar bay- does exist on the 1st season engineering deck as made blatantly obvious in "The Enemy Within", which in my opinion helps to pin down it's location at the top two levels of the secondary hull and thus why the lower level could also be considered "B" deck.

That's actually a good observation about the ceiling not visible in most of S2/S3. We do see the curved ceiling clearly in S2's "The Ultimate Computer" and on a different ship in "The Omega Glory". In S3, we see it barely in "The Enterprise Incident" although it's more in the shadow so you could pretend that it is flat. I haven't looked around at other episodes so there could be some that I missed. But that is great in that it can add variety to the multiple engine rooms with some flat ceiling and others not.

Chopping off the top of curved part of the ceiling on the filmed set leaves it still too tall and has too big of a footprint to fit in that area. (The limiting factor in this case is the undercut in the primary hull.)

So I agree, if you use FJ's blueprint and version of the engine room it is the best bet to fit it in the primary hull above the neck the way you envision it.

"The Paradise Syndrome" includes some of my favorite Scotty moments, and it would be great to pin down exactly why the phasers shut down the warp drive when TMP claims warp-powered phasers were a new thing.

"Warp-powered phasers" isn't a new thing. They can be both warp-powered (see "The Paradise Syndrome" and "Elaan of Troyius") and impulse-powered or even battery-powered. The point is phaser power that is already generated from whatever source the crew selected *then* gets channeled through the main engines before firing. That is what is what is new.

DECKER: Sir, the Enterprise redesign increases phaser power by channelling it through the main engines. When they went into antimatter imbalance, the phasers were automatically cut off.​

At least it would justify there being some reason for the Engineering section to be in the saucer, ans Franz Joseph said. Otherwise, his choice to put it there just does not make sense to me.

Why can't there be an engineering section in both the primary and engineering hull? It would make the most sense given there is engineering equipment spread out in both hulls.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

"Warp-powered phasers" isn't a new thing. They can be both warp-powered (see "The Paradise Syndrome" and "Elaan of Troyius") and impulse-powered or even battery-powered. The point is phaser power that is already generated from whatever source the crew selected *then* gets channeled through the main engines before firing. That is what is what is new.

That makes sense to me.

Why can't there be an engineering section in both the primary and engineering hull? It would make the most sense given there is engineering equipment spread out in both hulls.

Actually, not only do I agree, but the idea of multiple engine rooms would be great as it solves both dramatic and technical concerns like you said.

But this opens a whole new discussion that I frankly would find fascinating not to mention it ties well into the original post: Is there any way to tell from each episode which engine room is being shown, the saucer one or the secondary hull one?