Antimatter Containment

[Herkimer Jitty]

Re: Anti-Matter Containment

We've also seen dead floating husks of starships, as opposed to floating clouds of vapor. If antimatter containment failure was concurrent with a ship being totally dead, Wolf 359 wouldn't be such a visually exciting graveyard.

There's also of course, instances where our heroes have run into derelicts that have been hanging around for quite some time without their antimater pods going pop.

 

[Aahz]

Re: Anti-Matter Containment

We've also seen dead floating husks of starships, as opposed to floating clouds of vapor. If antimatter containment failure was concurrent with a ship being totally dead, Wolf 359 wouldn't be such a visually exciting graveyard.

There's also of course, instances where our heroes have run into derelicts that have been hanging around for quite some time without their antimater pods going pop.

You mean like the USS Constellation?

I've wondered about that one for a while. The impulse engines overloading generated an explosion of 97.835 megatons. I wonder how much of that was the impulse engines alone and how much of it was the resulting rupture of the antimatter containment. Or was all the antimatter ejected at some point prior to the last hit from the doomsday machine that knocked out the Constellation's transporter? Scotty said the warp drive was a hopeless pile of junk, but he never said it wouldn't work anyway because the antimatter was all gone. Hmmm...

 

[Unicron]

Holy ancient thread resurrection! 2008?

*DOH!*

I had meant to post a reply in the *other* - newer - thread on the anti-matter containment!!!

Ooops...

I decided to merge the two, since this one had more replies. So no worries.

 

[blssdwlf]

Re: Anti-Matter Containment

The Constellation's antimatter was rendered inert ("deactivated") by the Doomsday Machine as indicated by the dialogue. The explosion probably was greater than 97.835 megatons since it was quoted for an impulse engine (singular) whereas the impulse engines (plural) were rigged to explode

There's also of course, instances where our heroes have run into derelicts that have been hanging around for quite some time without their antimater pods going pop.

You mean like the USS Constellation?

I've wondered about that one for a while. The impulse engines overloading generated an explosion of 97.835 megatons. I wonder how much of that was the impulse engines alone and how much of it was the resulting rupture of the antimatter containment. Or was all the antimatter ejected at some point prior to the last hit from the doomsday machine that knocked out the Constellation's transporter? Scotty said the warp drive was a hopeless pile of junk, but he never said it wouldn't work anyway because the antimatter was all gone. Hmmm...

 

[Aahz]

Re: Anti-Matter Containment

The Constellation's antimatter was rendered inert ("deactivated") by the Doomsday Machine as indicated by the dialogue. The explosion probably was greater than 97.835 megatons since it was quoted for an impulse engine (singular) whereas the impulse engines (plural) were rigged to explode

It wasn't rendered inert, but it was deactivated by a "general energy dampening field" that was also the cause of the subspace interference. True, it was still on-board and not ejected (temporarily forgot about that line when making my previous post), and true, it could not be counted on by Kirk for the explosion of the impulse engines. However, once the energy dampening field was destroyed by the impulse engine detonation, the subspace interference cleared up immediately, so it would also follow that the antimatter (now release from its containment) should have been reactivated and caused a larger secondary explosion as it came into contact with the inner workings of the doomsday machine.

As for the impulse engine vs engines difference, it was probably an understanding between Kirk and Spock that he was referring to the entire bank of impulse engines in figuring the explosive yield, otherwise Spock would have corrected him by saying something like "No, sir, 97.835 megatons per engine, for a total yield of 391.34 megatons from a bank of 4 impulse engines" (or however many it's supposed to have). Or maybe Scotty was able to get only one of the Constellation's engines working again.

Still, 97.835 megatons is a HUGE blast...

 

[blssdwlf]

Re: Anti-Matter Containment

The "deactivated" antimatter was probably not "reactivated" once the dampening field was removed since they also comment on the energy sources of the Doomsday Machine being "deactivated" in the same context.

SPOCK: Welcome aboard, Captain. Sensors show all energy sources deactivated. It's quite dead.

However, once the energy dampening field was destroyed by the impulse engine detonation, the subspace interference cleared up immediately, so it would also follow that the antimatter (now release from its containment) should have been reactivated and caused a larger secondary explosion as it came into contact with the inner workings of the doomsday machine.

It could go either way although Spock had no reason to correct Kirk. Kirk asked about an impulse engine and that's what Spock answered with. 97 megatons isn't that huge of a blast though when it comes to space weapons but probably was enough combined with shrapnel from the Constellation to cause enough internal damage to shut down the Doomsday Machine.

As for the impulse engine vs engines difference, it was probably an understanding between Kirk and Spock that he was referring to the entire bank of impulse engines in figuring the explosive yield, otherwise Spock would have corrected him by saying something like "No, sir, 97.835 megatons per engine, for a total yield of 391.34 megatons from a bank of 4 impulse engines" (or however many it's supposed to have). Or maybe Scotty was able to get only one of the Constellation's engines working again.

Still, 97.835 megatons is a HUGE blast...

 

[Aahz]

Re: Anti-Matter Containment

The "deactivated" antimatter was probably not "reactivated" once the dampening field was removed since they also comment on the energy sources of the Doomsday Machine being "deactivated" in the same context.

Mmmm, you could be right. Technically, though, and this would apply to Scotty's original comment, antimatter can't be "deactivated" -- either it is antimatter or it is not. To "deativate" it permanently would mean converting it to matter. Whether this is something the doomsday machine's field could have done is a matter of conjecture.

97 megatons isn't that huge of a blast though when it comes to space weapons but probably was enough combined with shrapnel from the Constellation to cause enough internal damage to shut down the Doomsday Machine.

I beg to differ. Read up on something called "Tsar Bomba" -- the largest fusion bomb ever detonated on Earth. Just the fireball was 5 miles wide, and almost reached the altitude of the bomber that dropped it. Some statistics:
- The mushroom cloud was 40 miles high (into the mesosphere) and 25 miles wide
- Villages as far away as 34 miles were completely obliterated (including brick structures)
- Third-degree burns could be caused 62 miles away
- The heat pulse was felt 170 miles away
- The shock wave was VISIBLE IN THE AIR 430 miles away
- Windows were broken 560 miles away
- The fireball was visible 630 miles away
- The shock wave went completely around the Earth 3 times, and was still measurable on the third pass
- The estimated yield was 50 megatons, making the power output at the peak of fusion about 5.4 septillion watts, or about 1.4% of the output of our Sun.
All this from an explosion approximately HALF that of the Constellation's impulse engines. I think the blast would have been pretty big even as space weapons are concerned...

 

[VidiianSkinRash]

What happened to my thread!

 

[Timo]

The "deactivated" antimatter was probably not "reactivated"

In the greater Trek context, we probably have to argue it was. After all, the DDM would probably have deactivated the antimatter stores aboard the Enterprise as well (possibly explaining why photon torpedoes were never considered an option in the fight, yet other episodes indicate that antimatter is absolutely essential for warp drive, and thus for the continuation of the adventures of our heroes after the fight is over.

In some interpretations of the fight, the Enterprise has been argued to have moved at warp speed. However, it's a constant plot point that the DDM cannot actually catch any of the starships, even when those are performing proximity maneuvers such as loitering within transporter range (and thus probably stay at impulse, since warp transport wasn't a TOS technique), whereas the crippled, impulse-only Constellation can catch the DDM. If we choose to believe in an impulse-only fight, it's then possible to believe in an Enterprise whose antimatter is deactivated just like her sister ship's - and if so, then it's better to believe in reactivation than not.

It's complicated, yeah, but it nicely explains the lack of torpedoes and is at least a possible fit of the other facts.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[blssdwlf]

The "deactivated" antimatter was probably not "reactivated"

In the greater Trek context, we probably have to argue it was. After all, the DDM would probably have deactivated the antimatter stores aboard the Enterprise as well (possibly explaining why photon torpedoes were never considered an option in the fight, yet other episodes indicate that antimatter is absolutely essential for warp drive, and thus for the continuation of the adventures of our heroes after the fight is over.

Why do we have to argue that it was re-activated? What we do know is that the Enterprise's antimatter stores were still viable since Spock estimated that warp drive would be repaired in one day. The Constellation, on the other hand, was specified to have her antimatter deactivated (and that wasn't coming back or it would've been mentioned.) Plus, if "deactivated" was used the same way for the Doomsday Machine, it would make sense Spock would call the deactivated DDM "quite dead".

In some interpretations of the fight, the Enterprise has been argued to have moved at warp speed. However, it's a constant plot point that the DDM cannot actually catch any of the starships, even when those are performing proximity maneuvers such as loitering within transporter range (and thus probably stay at impulse, since warp transport wasn't a TOS technique), whereas the crippled, impulse-only Constellation can catch the DDM. If we choose to believe in an impulse-only fight, it's then possible to believe in an Enterprise whose antimatter is deactivated just like her sister ship's - and if so, then it's better to believe in reactivation than not.

It's complicated, yeah, but it nicely explains the lack of torpedoes and is at least a possible fit of the other facts.

It could also be argued that the Enterprise is using her warp drive to outmaneuver the DDM at both sublight and FTL speeds. Also, the Constellation never catches up to the DDM - rather the DDM follows the Enterprise to the rendezvous point. In anycase, there was not any indication that the Enterprise's antimatter fuel were deactivated.

Mmmm, you could be right. Technically, though, and this would apply to Scotty's original comment, antimatter can't be "deactivated" -- either it is antimatter or it is not. To "deactivate" it permanently would mean converting it to matter. Whether this is something the doomsday machine's field could have done is a matter of conjecture.

Washburn had to tell the damage control party what was deactivated. I'm not sure how you could better phrase it than the original dialogue... perhaps if he had said, "Somehow the matter formerly known as antimatter in the warp drive pods has been deactivated."

 

[Timo]

What we do know is that the Enterprise's antimatter stores were still viable since Spock estimated that warp drive would be repaired in one day.

We could take that as meaning that antimatter deactivation would cease to be a concern after one day - thanks to the DDM moving on and ceasing to jam the ship and her fuel stores with its mysterious fields.

The key question here is, if the DDM did not deactivate the antimatter aboard the Enterprise, why not? The machine possessed that ability, and we learned of nothing that would make the DDM treat the two starships differently.

If deactivation of antimatter was a feature of DDM attacks that our heroes learned of early on, there'd be little reason to mention it later on. Assuming the battle was then fought without things that need antimatter, that is. But we've seen such battles before and after, and the sluggishness of an impulse-only starship (as lamented in "Elaan of Troyius") would not be a factor against an even clumsier DDM.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[bryce]

Re: Anti-Matter Containment

The TNG Tech Manual says there's an inner lining of some magical substance (ala dilithium) within each antimatter pod that produces a magnetic containment field. It might be a case that even if the ship loses all power, the pods won't rupture unless they are physically damaged (say during a battle) and the pods' containment fields starts to decay. If you're lucky, you might have time to eject the pods, if not...

Hey, don't they have room temp. superconductors in Trek's time?

And isn't it true that once you set up an electric current in a superconductor - say, a superconducting ring or coil - doesn't it pretty much go on forever?

And doesn't an electric current circulating through a conducting
coil of wire, produce an magnetic field.

So...if you wrapped the anti-matter pods with superconducting rings or looped coils...wouldn't you pretty much have something that would generate a magnetic field with little need for more electricity to be applied.

Of course, in the real word - the coil would lose power eventually, as no conductor is perfect - electricity would *leak* out do to quantum effects, subtle imperfections, etc...and wouldn't any "work" the magnetic field did cause a subtle loss of energy? ('Work', such as repelling and bending the path of the charged anti-matter particles?)

But if you had room-temp or even high-temp superconducting coils wrapped around the storage pods or whatever, you would have a pretty low-maintenance way of storing anti-matter in a self-sustaining magnetic field that would work for a while, at least, with little or *almost* no power? (And if you did other tricks such as super-cooling the antimatter and compressing it *somehow* to it stayed cold, like someone suggested earlier...)

Just a thought.

 

[blssdwlf]

What we do know is that the Enterprise's antimatter stores were still viable since Spock estimated that warp drive would be repaired in one day.

We could take that as meaning that antimatter deactivation would cease to be a concern after one day - thanks to the DDM moving on and ceasing to jam the ship and her fuel stores with its mysterious fields.

We could, but that's not what is even implied in the dialogue. If restoring warp drive was dependent on escaping the subspace interference that would've been brought up and there would be no timetable as everything would be dependent on distance from the DDM.

The key question here is, if the DDM did not deactivate the antimatter aboard the Enterprise, why not? The machine possessed that ability, and we learned of nothing that would make the DDM treat the two starships differently.

That key question cannot be answered without knowing a more important question: how does the DDM deactivate the antimatter? All we know from the dialogue is that the DDM deactivated the antimatter and Kirk and Scott speculate that it is from a general energy dampening field. We know that the Enterprise sustained far less damage than the Constellation. For all we know, the DDM would've eventually deactivated the Enterprise's antimatter after some more hits that would make the nacelles blow out like the Constellation's but Kirk's timely intervention saved them from it.

 

[Timo]

there would be no timetable as everything would be dependent on distance from the DDM.

But if it takes a day to repair the physical damage to the warp drive, the DDM and its jamming field would be gone, and not a factor in the timetable any more.

For all we know, the DDM would've eventually deactivated the Enterprise's antimatter after some more hits that would make the nacelles blow out like the Constellation's but Kirk's timely intervention saved them from it.

Quite possible. I guess the interesting corollary to the "how" is whether the DDM could have gone beyond deactivating antimatter and instead used the trick for activating matter...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[publiusr]

Re: Anti-Matter Containment

The "deactivated" antimatter was probably not "reactivated" once the dampening field was removed since they also comment on the energy sources of the Doomsday Machine being "deactivated" in the same context.

Mmmm, you could be right. Technically, though, and this would apply to Scotty's original comment, antimatter can't be "deactivated" -- either it is antimatter or it is not. To "deativate" it permanently would mean converting it to matter. Whether this is something the doomsday machine's field could have done is a matter of conjecture.

97 megatons isn't that huge of a blast though when it comes to space weapons but probably was enough combined with shrapnel from the Constellation to cause enough internal damage to shut down the Doomsday Machine.

I beg to differ. Read up on something called "Tsar Bomba" -- the largest fusion bomb ever detonated on Earth. Just the fireball was 5 miles wide, and almost reached the altitude of the bomber that dropped it. Some statistics:
- The mushroom cloud was 40 miles high (into the mesosphere) and 25 miles wide
- Villages as far away as 34 miles were completely obliterated (including brick structures)
- Third-degree burns could be caused 62 miles away
- The heat pulse was felt 170 miles away
- The shock wave was VISIBLE IN THE AIR 430 miles away
- Windows were broken 560 miles away
- The fireball was visible 630 miles away
- The shock wave went completely around the Earth 3 times, and was still measurable on the third pass
- The estimated yield was 50 megatons, making the power output at the peak of fusion about 5.4 septillion watts, or about 1.4% of the output of our Sun.
All this from an explosion approximately HALF that of the Constellation's impulse engines. I think the blast would have been pretty big even as space weapons are concerned...

Rivaling Krakatau, although I think its shock wave circled the globe nine times...

 

[blssdwlf]

there would be no timetable as everything would be dependent on distance from the DDM.

But if it takes a day to repair the physical damage to the warp drive, the DDM and its jamming field would be gone, and not a factor in the timetable any more.

That would be true except when Spock made his damage report to Kirk the DDM was in pursuit of the Enterprise and it did not appear that they would be able to escape as easily as they did before without running out of impulse fuel first. Perhaps it was unsaid as a a plan for the Constellation to trade off with the DDM as bait to allow the Enterprise to escape.

 

[T'Girl]

Re: Anti-Matter Containment

That key question cannot be answered without knowing a more important question: how does the DDM deactivate the antimatter?

If the DM's general energy dampening field rendered the electric charge in the positrons and anti-protons of the antimatter non-existent, the antimatter would become a inert substance, you could pick it up in your hand and throw it against a wall and nothing would happen. Simply removing the damping field would have no effect, the damage had been done.

To "re-activate" the antimatter would require a separate action. Something would have to re-establish the electrical charge in the positrons and anti-protons, otherwise it would remain inert ... forever.

97 megatons isn't that huge of a blast though when it comes to space weapons

I beg to differ.

The thing is nuclear bombs do harm through blast, thermal radiation and Ionizing radiation. Because space is a vacuum, it's difficult to transmit the blast shockwave from the site of the detonation to the target. The thermal effects of the detonation, briefly in the tens of millions of degrees, cools rapidly as the fireball expands spherically. Without atmosphere, water or another materials to hold and carry the heat, it dissipates quickly in the vacuum of space.

This leaves ionizing radiation, gamma, x-rays, high energy particles and electromagnetic waves, even here in space you would have to be right on top of the bomb to be effected. The effect this radiation would have upon you at one mile would be at one hundred miles only one- ten thousandths as much.

This is why Kirk likely wanted to detonate the Constellation's engine inside the maw of the DM, otherwise the effect of the 97 megatonne detonation would have been negligible.

- Villages as far away as 34 miles were completely obliterated (including brick structure
- Windows were broken 560 miles away
- The shock wave went completely around the Earth 3 times, and was still measurable on the third pass

All of these effects were because the bomb was detonated in an atmosphere.

 

[Aahz]

Re: Anti-Matter Containment

All of these effects were because the bomb was detonated in an atmosphere.

I'll agree that a portion of Tsar Bomba's effects were due to its detonation in the atmosphere, but a nuclear weapon (especially a fusion weapon like Tsar Bomba) will still be highly effective in the vacuum of space.

First, and this isn't scientific but just based on other Star Trek episodes, shock waves and other effects from large explosions do travel through space, possibly due to extremely energetic particles from the explosion. In "Obsession", the Enterprise was subject to shock waves from an explosion on the surface of the planet, even though it was well outside the atmosphere. In "Balance of Terror" the Enterprise was affected by the detonation of an "old-style nuclear device", not just from shock waves but from radiation. In several other episodes, we see the Enterprise and/or its crew reacting to explosions that are some distance away yet still able to physically affect the ship.

Second, nuclear reactions do not have 100% conversion of matter to energy; in fact, only a tiny fraction of 1% of the matter is converted to energy. The rest is ejected at a fantastic speed. Plus, the energy that is created is also ejected. The matter and energy ejected from the explosion result in shock waves and heat effects, and radiation results from both the matter (alpha and beta particles) and energy (gamma rays) ejected. Think of the sun -- it is a fusion reaction (although not explosive), yet we feel its heat and are affected by the solar wind and radiation even though there is 93 million miles of the vacuum of space between it and us.

If the DM's general energy dampening field rendered the electric charge in the positrons and anti-protons of the antimatter non-existent, the antimatter would become a inert substance, you could pick it up in your hand and throw it against a wall and nothing would happen. Simply removing the damping field would have no effect, the damage had been done.

This shows a misunderstanding about the nature of antimatter (well, so does the script for "Doomsday Machine"). Animatter isn't simply a matter (excuse the pun) of opposite charges. Antimatter is the opposite of matter. While a positron does have a positive charge, it is not the same as a positively-charged electron (if there was such a thing). Likewise, an anti-proton isn't simply a proton with a negative charge. And what about antineutrons? They have no charge anyway, but are still different from and react with neutrons. Antimatter is a completely different physical state from matter.

Should matching particles of matter and antimatter meet, they're both instantaneously and totally converted to energy. This is why antimatter containment is such an issue - even a single atom of matter inside the containment bottle would be hazardous. This is also why I said earlier that to permanently "deactivate" antimatter you would have to convert it to matter. Even if an antiparticle were to somehow lose its charge, it would still be antimatter and capable of reacting with matter. And antineutrons have no charge to lose, so how would you deativate them?

In the case of the USS Constellation, might I suggest that perhaps what the Doomsday Machine did was, instead of actually "deactivating" the antimatter itself, deactivate the matter/antimatter reaction by the nature of its energy-dampening field. Then, once the field was gone, the matter/antimatter reaction capability would return. This could even have been a function of the DM -- disable matter/antimatter-based propulsion so that enemies could not escape on warp power. Maybe?

 

[TIN_MAN]

Re: Anti-Matter Containment

Maybe the anti-matter wasn't so much "deactivated" as "cooled down" (whatever that means) since we know from "The Naked Time" that normally matter and ant-matter can't be "mixed cold" (whatever that means)?

 

[blssdwlf]

@TIN_MAN - IIRC, "Cold" antimatter = biggest boom this side of the galaxy from "The Naked Time".

@Aahz - if you're willing to let in Star Trek "space explosion effects" then why not accept the dialogue that the antimatter had been "deactivated"?