Antimatter Containment

[Christopher]

As an alternative to magnetic confinement, why don't Trek starships just store it in a transporter buffer and remateralize it directly into the injection system. Since it is just an element, you don't need to keep the pattern coherent.

There's really very little difference between those two things. A transporter buffer is essentially a magnetic bottle that's holding a stream of disassembled subatomic particles.

Now that I think about it, doesn't the existence of a transporter kinda make matter-antimatter reactors obsolete? They could just beam the matter into the buffer, then siphon off the energy. Sort of half of the transportation process.

I don't know what that's supposed to mean. Energy would have to be expended to dematerialize and store the matter. You can't get more energy out of a process than you put into it, and using a transporter as part of the process would just entail expending more energy.

 

[Jimmy_C]

I C. I didn't know that's what a transporter buffer was. Well a transporter turns matter into energy then "beams it up" into the pattern buffer, right? At least that's how I thought it was explained on the show. Well when beaming some hydrogen gas around, it will turn the hydrogen gas into energy first. Just don't rematerialize the hydrogen. Use the energy to heat up a plasma, run a turbine, or do some other type of work.

If you think about it, that's what a M/AM reactor does too. It combines matter and antimatter, creating energy from the matter. In fact, it creates an equal amount of energy as the total mass used up (matter mass + antimatter mass = positive value). The M/AM reactor is thus a matter-energy transducer.

So both technologies turn matter into energy. The transporter just turns it back into mass again. So if you limit the transporter to only half of the process, you can turn matter into energy. See what I mean?

 

[Basill]

At the heart of any engine system however, is the need for raw power to get anything done. It is the amount of energy that is in question.

Yes, the transporter turns matter into energy, which itself requires energy, but also needs to turn it back, which should be even more energy intensive. In the Star Trek universe, transporters and M/AM reactors are both highly sophisticated technologies and, as you suggested, probably both use some if not most of the same equipment. Transporters however, are far more complex with a totally different end goal in mind than warp engines.

If Trek canon has anything to say on the issue, transporters actually require less energy to function than the warp coils need to bring about faster than light propulsion. The warp engines probably power the transporter process, though I've often heard that even the fusion power houses aboard ship could do this. After all, transporters have been used when main engine power was offline on more than one occasion.

M/AM reactors are simply the most bang for the buck. Simply turning hydrogen into energy and beaming it into the warp coils might not be enough to do the trick, and you will still need energy to make it happen.

 

[Christopher]

I C. I didn't know that's what a transporter buffer was. Well a transporter turns matter into energy then "beams it up" into the pattern buffer, right? At least that's how I thought it was explained on the show.

That's how it was explained in dialogue, but that's not how it really works according to the Sternbach/Okuda tech references. The idea of converting matter to energy and back again is ludicrously impractical. By E=MC^2, the amount of energy in one gram of matter -- that's a paper clip -- is about equal to the Hiroshima bomb. So converting the mass of a human being to energy would release a devastating amount of energy that would destroy the ship, or else would cause an extinction-level cataclysm on a planet. It's just a nonstarter.

What a transporter "actually" does, by the modern theory, is to break down an object into its component particles and store the pattern information for how those particles go together in the energy matrix of the transporter beam. This is how I interpret the "matter converted to energy" dialogue. Quantum-physically speaking, an object is defined by its information, not its material substance. Once you're broken down by a transporter, your particles are just random particles that could be part of anything. It's the pattern encoded in the beam that defines who and what you are (and that, according to "Realm of Fear," actually maintains a disembodied consciousness). So in that sense, you are "converted" temporarily to energy, in that the information defining and embodying what you are is transferred to an energetic medium. But that doesn't mean your mass is converted to energy.

So this...

Well when beaming some hydrogen gas around, it will turn the hydrogen gas into energy first. Just don't rematerialize the hydrogen. Use the energy to heat up a plasma, run a turbine, or do some other type of work.

...just won't work.

If you think about it, that's what a M/AM reactor does too. It combines matter and antimatter, creating energy from the matter. In fact, it creates an equal amount of energy as the total mass used up (matter mass + antimatter mass = positive value).

That's a common myth. Technically that's so, but a lot of that energy is lost in forms that can't be practically harnessed, like the neutrinos that result from a proton-antiproton annihilation and the subsequent decays. In practical terms, the energy gain is not going to be exactly equal to MC^2.

 

[Jimmy_C]

I understand. I'm not sure which is the better authority in this case: the tech manual or the show. Even though the show is usually considered more canon than the tech manual, there have been cases where they ignored the show (Threshold, etc).

BTW doesn't the tech manual also indicate that warp theory led to the development of cheap/small neutrino detectors in the Trekverse? That suggests to me that they have the ability to absorb neutrinos (or at least interact with them over a short distance), which means they can harness the KE energy from them. Then maybe the warp core has some mechanism to absorb that energy as well.

In any case. still think the reaction is 1:1 and the warp plasma is energized by a heat exchanger with the coolant system. That just makes more practical sense to me.

 

[SoM]

The other thing that always bothered me is that matter-antimatter reactions = high-energy gamma radiation. How do you then render the gamma into usable form?

Electron-positron annihilation produces gamma rays. But proton-antiproton (or neutron-antineutron) annihilation produces both gamma rays and pions, and charged pions quickly decay into muons and neutrinos, with the muons decaying in turn into electrons, neutrinos, and their antiparticles. The gamma rays and neutrinos escape, but those charged pions, muons, electrons, and positrons can be redirected and contained by a magnetic field and used as an exhaust stream or as a means to heat a propellant, according to real-world proposals for antimatter rockets. So these particles probably constitute the "warp plasma" that results from the annihilation reaction and is used to channel energy to the warp coils.

At the same time though, you still have a massive amount of gamma radiation to deal with (and if it just "escapes", everyone in the neighbourhood of the big glowy column is probably dying horribly if they have even vaguely human-like biology).

That's quite possible -- except it contradicts "Coming of Age," which alleged that the matter/antimatter intermix ratio must always be 1:1. However, your suggestion is closer to real proposals for antimatter power -- using more matter than antimatter and using the heated excess matter as a working fluid or reaction mass -- so I'm inclined to disregard what "Coming of Age" claimed. In fact, that would probably be entirely necessary to deal with the problem of gamma-ray escape mentioned above. Those gamma rays would represent a lot of energy, and it would be kind of pointless to let them just radiate away uselessly. If they instead irradiate the extra particles in the matter stream, those particles will absorb much of their energy and be able to transmit it to the engines.

So I'd say you're right. The pions, muons, electrons, and positrons resulting from the deuteron-antideuteron annihilations must only be part of the warp plasma, with the rest being extra deuterium nuclei energized by an absorption of gamma rays (which might split them into protons and neutrons).

What sort of density would you need to absorb (or render down to at least the lower X-rays and below) anywhere near 100% of the gamma though? The sun does it, but the sun has a massively compacted core and a hellavalot of high-gravity plasma for the energy to get through. Even with the gravity plating in the engines turned up to maximum (which there's no evidence for), there's not the time or mass to deal with it all.

 

[Jimmy_C]

The other thing that always bothered me is that matter-antimatter reactions = high-energy gamma radiation. How do you then render the gamma into usable form?

Electron-positron annihilation produces gamma rays. But proton-antiproton (or neutron-antineutron) annihilation produces both gamma rays and pions, and charged pions quickly decay into muons and neutrinos, with the muons decaying in turn into electrons, neutrinos, and their antiparticles. The gamma rays and neutrinos escape, but those charged pions, muons, electrons, and positrons can be redirected and contained by a magnetic field and used as an exhaust stream or as a means to heat a propellant, according to real-world proposals for antimatter rockets. So these particles probably constitute the "warp plasma" that results from the annihilation reaction and is used to channel energy to the warp coils.

At the same time though, you still have a massive amount of gamma radiation to deal with (and if it just "escapes", everyone in the neighbourhood of the big glowy column is probably dying horribly if they have even vaguely human-like biology).

That's quite possible -- except it contradicts "Coming of Age," which alleged that the matter/antimatter intermix ratio must always be 1:1. However, your suggestion is closer to real proposals for antimatter power -- using more matter than antimatter and using the heated excess matter as a working fluid or reaction mass -- so I'm inclined to disregard what "Coming of Age" claimed. In fact, that would probably be entirely necessary to deal with the problem of gamma-ray escape mentioned above. Those gamma rays would represent a lot of energy, and it would be kind of pointless to let them just radiate away uselessly. If they instead irradiate the extra particles in the matter stream, those particles will absorb much of their energy and be able to transmit it to the engines.

So I'd say you're right. The pions, muons, electrons, and positrons resulting from the deuteron-antideuteron annihilations must only be part of the warp plasma, with the rest being extra deuterium nuclei energized by an absorption of gamma rays (which might split them into protons and neutrons).

What sort of density would you need to absorb (or render down to at least the lower X-rays and below) anywhere near 100% of the gamma though? The sun does it, but the sun has a massively compacted core and a hellavalot of high-gravity plasma for the energy to get through. Even with the gravity plating in the engines turned up to maximum (which there's no evidence for), there's not the time or mass to deal with it all.

They can bend the gamma rays away from the walls of the reaction chamber by applying a non-constant warp field. Gamma rays will be bent away from the warp field since one "side" goes faster than the other side.

 

[GodThingFormerly]

What sort of density would you need to absorb (or render down to at least the lower X-rays and below) anywhere near 100% of the gamma though? The sun does it, but the sun has a massively compacted core and a hellavalot of high-gravity plasma for the energy to get through. Even with the gravity plating in the engines turned up to maximum (which there's no evidence for), there's not the time or mass to deal with it all.

As I noted last year, the Italian astrodynamicist and plasma physicist Dr. Giovanni Vulpetti suggested(*) in 1981 that it may be possible to employ vacuum polarization to directionalize gamma rays generated by an anti-proton rocket for optimal thrust as well as to minimize space vehicle engine radiation shielding requirements. A conceptually similar mechanism could be invoked to protect Trek starship M/AM propulsion reactors (and nearby personnel) from gamma-irradiation.

TGT

* Abstract scanned from Applications of Modern Dynamics to Celestial Mechanics and Astrodynamics (NATO Advanced Studies Institutes Series) edited by Victor G. Szebehely (Springer, 1982).

 

[Christopher]

At the same time though, you still have a massive amount of gamma radiation to deal with (and if it just "escapes", everyone in the neighbourhood of the big glowy column is probably dying horribly if they have even vaguely human-like biology).

Not to mention the heat. A matter-antimatter reactor should be spilling off a ton of waste heat. The idea of a warp core actually being in the middle of a room with people walking around right next to it is ridiculous; they should be instantly roasted. The warp reactor should be in a wholly separate section of the ship. Heck, that was the whole idea behind the engine nacelles in the first place -- they were where the actual engines were and were kept well apart from the rest of the ship due to the intense radiation. The Phase II/TMP design of a warp core actually in the middle of the engine room was the worst idea they had in that production.

What sort of density would you need to absorb (or render down to at least the lower X-rays and below) anywhere near 100% of the gamma though? The sun does it, but the sun has a massively compacted core and a hellavalot of high-gravity plasma for the energy to get through. Even with the gravity plating in the engines turned up to maximum (which there's no evidence for), there's not the time or mass to deal with it all.

Gravity isn't the key there. It's more to do with the amount of mass overhead being pulled on by that gravity. This is why starships need to be enclosed and can't just have a gravity plate below and open space above -- because the weight and therefore pressure of a 3-meter column of air is negligible compared to that of a 100-kilometer column of air, so you'd still be in essentially a vacuum.

Perhaps gamma-ray absorption is another function of dilithium. Maybe the crystal structure traps the gamma rays, amplifies them, and lases them along the power transfer conduits. Or perhaps the conduits and the walls of the warp core are made of materials that function as gamma-ray waveguides, analogous to fiber optic cables.

 

[Plecostomus]

Chris talks sense here. My stepfather is a nuclear engineer and I took some classes along those lines years ago before taking a different path. Nuclear power technology one of my hobbies, especially the older stuff.

The fact that there does not seem to be a method of crash-stopping the reactor nor any mention of a backup emergency core cooling system just baffles me, it's poor writing and to me anyway would enhance the drama.

A line of dialog in Generations saying "we're running on the emergency cooling system now, try to reroute all the loads to the impulse system so we can shutdown the warp core before the last containment generator overloads--- Aw crap there goes the backup..." Or something. Give us a hint of just HOW dire the situation is, instead of just the resigned giving up and consigning the ship to a special effects death.

*shrug* My two cents anyway. Then again I am a self-professed technobabble whore anyway, I eat this stuff for breakfast and spend hours figuring out what they REALLY meant.

 

[VidiianSkinRash]

Anti-Matter Containment

What contains the anti-matter onboard starships? or do they store anti-matter at all?

I assumed they stored some and it was forcefields of some kind that contained it but that's simply not possible, it must be something physical holding it all because we've seen on numerous occasions that ships have completely lost all power and that would mean the anti-matter containment field would collapse and the ship would explode from the resulting explosion.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Re: Anti-Matter Containment

I believe ships have small "pods" with forcefields for containment, and the pods can be jetisoned in emergencies if need be?

 

[C.E. Evans]

Re: Anti-Matter Containment

The TNG Tech Manual says there's an inner lining of some magical substance (ala dilithium) within each antimatter pod that produces a magnetic containment field. It might be a case that even if the ship loses all power, the pods won't rupture unless they are physically damaged (say during a battle) and the pods' containment fields starts to decay. If you're lucky, you might have time to eject the pods, if not...

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Re: Anti-Matter Containment

For further reading.

 

[Timo]

Re: Anti-Matter Containment

we've seen on numerous occasions that ships have completely lost all power

Yet curiously, loss of "all" power has never resulted in internal lighting being lost. Nor has there been gravity loss as the result of power loss (although gravity has on occasion been lost to specific malfunctions of the gravity hardware).

If there's a backup system that keeps the lights glowing and gravity pulling, there probably are far more capable backup systems that keep far more vital things working even when the warp core is down, every fusion reactor has blown, all the batteries are empty and the hamster has died at his wheel.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Xerxes1979]

Re: Anti-Matter Containment

The Enterprise has never been completely drained of power. The closest was probably in "The Last Outpost".

We did see the magnetic containment field failing in 11001001, but that was Binar trickery so we don't know if that would occur in the course of a normal distaster.

 

[bryce]

The lattice structure of dilithium is such that, when in an EM field, it functions as a sort of "magnetic bottle" on a microscale, holding the antiparticles within the gaps in the atomic lattice so that they don't annihilate the crystal's particles.

^This reminds me of a hypothetical crystal-based, *non-energy consuming* antimatter storage device I read about once, a long, long time ago in Analog magazine (this was back in the late 80's, I believe) - in Analog they called this proposed crystal storage something like 'real-life dilithium crystals', but they weren't made of any kind of lithium (as far as I remember) - nor is that what dilithium crystals do in Trek. They don't store anti-matter.

But...they idea was to store that antimatter as individual particles in a crystal lattice. but not just any crystal - but a specially engineered sort of crystal that, like memory materials, changed it's crystalline structure when either heat and/or electric or magnetic charge was applied to it. In one phase the crystal lattice would act as a cage, like you describe above, holding the individual antimatter particles without touching the walls of the crystal lattice itself (suspending it, I guess, using natural atomic or molecular attraction and repulsion forces). But when a charge was applied, the crystal lattice would open up, allowing the anti-matter atoms to flow or be moved freely through it and be extracted. But, as a fail-safe, the crystal structure would revert back to it's cage arrangement if too much heat or energy was applied to it...or, in this case, generated by too many matter/anti-matter reactions - thereby re-containing the anti-matter. (the heat would be generated by millions of tiny little matter-anti-matter reactions...enough to generate heat or an electric current or something, but not near enough to cause a huge nuclear-bomb sized kaboom.)

This property would allow the crystal to maintain containment integrity without the need for a constant supply of energy, so you wouldn't have to worry about catastrophic containment failure if the power failed, like you would with a shield or electromagnetic containment device! The containment would be self-maintaining.

And the matter-anti-matter reaction could be regulated by the application of magnetic or electric fields...or maybe even self regulating if the crystal lattice was "open" naturally, and "closed' when heat or an electric current or magnetic field was applied: The crystal would open...matter and anti-matter would react...the crystal would close...the temp or whatever would drop off...the crystal would open...etc, etc...(maybe.)

^So I suppose the same properties of this crystal that contain antimatter could be used to perhaps regulate (and maybe even channel the anti-matter reaction.

Of course, nobody knows if such a crystal exists or can be created - or how to create it. It was all just hypothetical.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Holy ancient thread resurrection! 2008?

 

[publiusr]

Oh well. The real thing--almost
http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20100012864

 

[bryce]

Holy ancient thread resurrection! 2008?

*DOH!*

I had meant to post a reply in the *other* - newer - thread on the anti-matter containment!!!

Ooops...