• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Another way to have defeated Khan in TWOK?

Presumably he wasn't aware of the prefix code or would have changed it. In the novelization if not in the film, Spock even references that.

But also, yes, by TWOK Khan is pretty much a nutcase. A smart and dangerous nutcase, but also a nutcase, and quite possibly one so eager to get revenge that he didn't do things like read Reliant's tech manual.
 
Yeah, they have different characters refer to how incredibly intelligent Khan is supposed to be, but they don’t really show it with his actions onscreen.
Yes, Kirk is a bit out of it, but so is Khan, worse even, I mean he's supposed to be a superior mind, "I never forget a face." Yet he falls for the simplest tricks. He should have changed the access code for the remote control thing, he should have understood Spock's "coded" message, he should have all sorts of alternative plans in case the first plan failed. That's what superior minds do they see different possibilities. It looks like his prolonged stay on Ceti Alpha five has left him with an addled brain.
 
the easiest would be for Kirk to just have raised shields. I realize that they’re trying to make him look “rusty” because of how long he’s been out of action, but to have characters POINT OUT that he should raise shields and then have him ignore it has him look worse than rusty, it makes him look incompetent. That scene just drags on with the “Reliant”approaching and Kirk just seeming clueless, and it’s poor writing. They should have come up with another way for Khan to get the upper hand there without making Kirk look clueless.

I don't completely share this view - yes Kirk does come away looking a little silly but it was a federation starship that was approaching, if it had been a ship from any other power then I would agree with you 100%, he couldn't possibly know his own fleet was going to fire on him. I guess the rub is when Saavik quotes 'general order 12' at Kirk. You could argue that Spock was as complicit as he just shuts her down 'The admiral is well aware of the regulations'.

Ultimately, yes, they should have raised the shields but there were highly unusual, mitigating circumstances that prevented them from seeing what was going on.
 
We know that raising of shields is generally an extremely bad idea.

How do we now this? Why, because nobody ever raises shields unless absolutely necessary. And this criterion does not include, say, "entering a war zone".

Obviously, Starfleet regulations would reflect that, and would strongly recommend against raising shields in most circumstances. Indeed, GO12 might be the one to state that, if a ship in apparent distress is met, raising of shields is a court martial offense because it will block transporter evacuation and be comparable to machine-gunning survivors who tread water.

We don't know why raising of shields is a bad idea, to be sure, only that it very much is. Blocking of transporting is certainly an aspect there, but in many situations, this would be desirable yet shields stay down. Consumption of precious energy reserves is another option, but there are zero instances of anybody counting down on such dwindling assets: once shields are raised, concerns of this sort evaporate. This covers both shared assets (power going to shields might be away from propulsion or weapons) and non-shared ones (keeping shields raised might wear down the shield generators); neither gets any mention in dialogue.

The very name could be suggestive, of course: a knight who holds up his shield is at a disadvantage, not only because his arm is getting tired, but because the shield blocks his sword hand and his vision. And we do hear (exactly once!) that full shields prevent the use of full weapons, in "A Taste of Armageddon" (which also introduces the idea that beaming up is blocked by shields, although beaming down apparently is not). But this sentiment never resurfaces in subsequent fights.

So the one option we have left is that raised shields make you blind. Not completely blind, but again the analogy is obvious: the knight is in mortal danger when donning his helmet which stops him from seeing or hearing the bowman to his left and the axeman behind his back. And Starfleet would be the one party to value situational awareness over most other things, even when a Klingon might to to a fight blind and uncaring of what exactly he is killing.

The other is that a shield shines suicidally bright. You can't sneak up to anybody with shields up, so your situational unawareness is doubly dangerous.

In the encounter with the Reliant, Kirk needed intel on the fellow ship. He also would have needed the ability to use transporters. There is no doubt that raising of shields would have been a bad move - after all, we had seen this very encounter a couple of times earlier, with Kirk meeting unresponsive fellow starships and steadfastly keeping shields down. Did Kirk break regulations every single time in those TOS encounters? More probably, regulations would reflect the practicalities, and raising of shields would be forbidden. Nothing Saavik says contradicts that exactly.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I think raising shields should be the first thing anytime you meet a ship for the first time. First, because the first duty of a captain is to his ship and crew, second because you never know what might be out there, a deadly virus, a powerful entity taking over the ship, or a madman intent on destroying you.
 
Yet for some reason this is the exact opposite of how Starfleet works. Or any of the opposing fleets, for that matter.

Studio reasons for this vary. It's basically up to us to think of an in-universe reason. But those aside, it would be "damned peculiar" for Kirk to raise shields on this occasion, when he never did this back in the day when he was the sharpest phaser in the drawer and survived to tell the tale.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Yet for some reason this is the exact opposite of how Starfleet works. Or any of the opposing fleets, for that matter.

Studio reasons for this vary. It's basically up to us to think of an in-universe reason. But those aside, it would be "damned peculiar" for Kirk to raise shields on this occasion, when he never did this back in the day when he was the sharpest phaser in the drawer and survived to tell the tale.

Timo Saloniemi

I could quote Admiral Pike on this: "You think the rules don't apply to you. There's greatness in you, but there's not an ounce of humility. You use pure luck to justify anything. You think that you can't make mistakes, but there's going to come a moment when you realize you're wrong about that, and you're going to get yourself and everyone under your command killed."

Looks like right on the money for that one incident.
 
It has been easily explained in the scene.

Joachim or another Augment: "They're still running with their shields down..."

Khan: "Of course, we're all one big happy fleet!"
 
If they had just beamed Khan off and took him into custody then his followers would've moved heaven and earth to get him back--it's what indoctrinated people do to please the one they follow.
 
^When were they supposed to do that? Before Khan's attack they don't know he's a threat, and after Khan's attack we rarely see Our Heroes in a position to be operating transporters due to damage to the ship. They may have been able to work them while within the nebula, but the only time it comes up is when Kirk suggests beaming aboard Reliant to shut down Genesis, and he's shut down so quickly that it's unclear whether transporters are even functional at that point.
 
It wouldn't have worked for plot reasons, but I always assumed, at the end of the film, that the Enterprise crew could have saved themselves and killed off Khan by completely destroying the wrecked Reliant before the Genesis device goes off. Like I said, would have been too easy.
 
It wouldn't have worked for plot reasons, but I always assumed, at the end of the film, that the Enterprise crew could have saved themselves and killed off Khan by completely destroying the wrecked Reliant before the Genesis device goes off. Like I said, would have been too easy.

Or beamed him to the brig as soon as his shields went down (along with whoever was still alive but it looks like he was the only one).
 
His shields were already down because of the nebula.

I imagine destroying Reliant might just have caused the Genesis device to detonate prematurely or tech tech bigger problem...
 
True.

It wouldn't have worked for plot reasons, but I always assumed, at the end of the film, that the Enterprise crew could have saved themselves and killed off Khan by completely destroying the wrecked Reliant before the Genesis device goes off. Like I said, would have been too easy.

That might have set it off early, incompletely...ugh
 
Indeed, we probably have to take David Marcus' word for it (because he should know): once Khan pushes that interface, Genesis is already as good as detonated, and the countdown is the only thing that's keeping the effect from being felt by our heroes yet...

Whether transporters would work in the nebula is unknown. Kirk threatens to board the Reliant with those, but perhaps this would not have worked in practice?

Timo Saloniemi
 
Yeah, we don't know for sure. David says there's no point in beaming aboard in terms of stopping Genesis, but we don't know whether beaming aboard would have been impossible in any case. Considering that the nebula's effects were so bad even viewscreens weren't working properly, it's hard for me to imagine that transporting would be a great idea.
 
the easiest would be for Kirk to just have raised shields. I realize that they’re trying to make him look “rusty” because of how long he’s been out of action, but to have characters POINT OUT that he should raise shields and then have him ignore it has him look worse than rusty, it makes him look incompetent. That scene just drags on with the “Reliant”approaching and Kirk just seeming clueless, and it’s poor writing. They should have come up with another way for Khan to get the upper hand there without making Kirk look clueless.
Roddenberry suggested an alternative that would have made Khan look smarter and Kirk less foolish, but they ignored it.

What he wrote was....

Excerpt from memo to Harve Bennett from Gene Roddenberry dated Sept. 2, 1981, page 4.

[...] However, we can keep Khan's treachery
alive by doing something we often did in the series, i.e., playing
the starship's “protective armor" as consisting of the basic
protective forcefields which surround the entire vessel in times of
emergency, plus the more localized ultra-high energy deflectors
which are even more powerful but create an enormous drain on ship's
power.

In putting up forcefields or protective forcefields or forcefield
shields
(whatever you prefer to call them), starship Enterprise is
protected unless the other vessel is allowed to get in too close
where a point blank concentrated phaser strike could rupture the
forcefield protection (which is why the ship has the heavier
deflectors for just such protection in critical battle situations).

Now, this allows Khan to use his cleverness and tricks to steadily
get in closer and closer, perhaps even using a transmitted comment
from Chekov to put Kirk off guard. Then at the last split second,
Kirk sees what is happening, but it is too late to get the powerful
deflectors into place, and the Enterprise is heavily damaged just as
described.[...]​
 
Last edited:
Well they do call yellow alert and "energise defence fields" - it's not clear what those fields are, but I always assumed it was a sort of secondary protective screen around the Bridge and upper saucer (as indicated by the graphic)
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top