Another way to have defeated Khan in TWOK?

Discussion in 'Star Trek Movies I-X' started by dswynne1, Dec 24, 2020.

  1. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Presumably he wasn't aware of the prefix code or would have changed it. In the novelization if not in the film, Spock even references that.

    But also, yes, by TWOK Khan is pretty much a nutcase. A smart and dangerous nutcase, but also a nutcase, and quite possibly one so eager to get revenge that he didn't do things like read Reliant's tech manual.
     
    publiusr likes this.
  2. FormerLurker

    FormerLurker Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    May 17, 2009
    "If he hasn't changed it. He is quite intelligent." Yeah, that was in the film.
     
    DonIago likes this.
  3. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2007
    Location:
    in a figment of a mediocre mind's imagination
    Yeah, they have different characters refer to how incredibly intelligent Khan is supposed to be, but they don’t really show it with his actions onscreen.
     
  4. publiusr

    publiusr Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    Location:
    publiusr
    Anger can make you dumb
     
  5. Smellmet

    Smellmet Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2013
    Location:
    The Northern Shires of England.
    I don't completely share this view - yes Kirk does come away looking a little silly but it was a federation starship that was approaching, if it had been a ship from any other power then I would agree with you 100%, he couldn't possibly know his own fleet was going to fire on him. I guess the rub is when Saavik quotes 'general order 12' at Kirk. You could argue that Spock was as complicit as he just shuts her down 'The admiral is well aware of the regulations'.

    Ultimately, yes, they should have raised the shields but there were highly unusual, mitigating circumstances that prevented them from seeing what was going on.
     
  6. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    We know that raising of shields is generally an extremely bad idea.

    How do we now this? Why, because nobody ever raises shields unless absolutely necessary. And this criterion does not include, say, "entering a war zone".

    Obviously, Starfleet regulations would reflect that, and would strongly recommend against raising shields in most circumstances. Indeed, GO12 might be the one to state that, if a ship in apparent distress is met, raising of shields is a court martial offense because it will block transporter evacuation and be comparable to machine-gunning survivors who tread water.

    We don't know why raising of shields is a bad idea, to be sure, only that it very much is. Blocking of transporting is certainly an aspect there, but in many situations, this would be desirable yet shields stay down. Consumption of precious energy reserves is another option, but there are zero instances of anybody counting down on such dwindling assets: once shields are raised, concerns of this sort evaporate. This covers both shared assets (power going to shields might be away from propulsion or weapons) and non-shared ones (keeping shields raised might wear down the shield generators); neither gets any mention in dialogue.

    The very name could be suggestive, of course: a knight who holds up his shield is at a disadvantage, not only because his arm is getting tired, but because the shield blocks his sword hand and his vision. And we do hear (exactly once!) that full shields prevent the use of full weapons, in "A Taste of Armageddon" (which also introduces the idea that beaming up is blocked by shields, although beaming down apparently is not). But this sentiment never resurfaces in subsequent fights.

    So the one option we have left is that raised shields make you blind. Not completely blind, but again the analogy is obvious: the knight is in mortal danger when donning his helmet which stops him from seeing or hearing the bowman to his left and the axeman behind his back. And Starfleet would be the one party to value situational awareness over most other things, even when a Klingon might to to a fight blind and uncaring of what exactly he is killing.

    The other is that a shield shines suicidally bright. You can't sneak up to anybody with shields up, so your situational unawareness is doubly dangerous.

    In the encounter with the Reliant, Kirk needed intel on the fellow ship. He also would have needed the ability to use transporters. There is no doubt that raising of shields would have been a bad move - after all, we had seen this very encounter a couple of times earlier, with Kirk meeting unresponsive fellow starships and steadfastly keeping shields down. Did Kirk break regulations every single time in those TOS encounters? More probably, regulations would reflect the practicalities, and raising of shields would be forbidden. Nothing Saavik says contradicts that exactly.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  7. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Location:
    Discofan
    I think raising shields should be the first thing anytime you meet a ship for the first time. First, because the first duty of a captain is to his ship and crew, second because you never know what might be out there, a deadly virus, a powerful entity taking over the ship, or a madman intent on destroying you.
     
    Smellmet likes this.
  8. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Yet for some reason this is the exact opposite of how Starfleet works. Or any of the opposing fleets, for that matter.

    Studio reasons for this vary. It's basically up to us to think of an in-universe reason. But those aside, it would be "damned peculiar" for Kirk to raise shields on this occasion, when he never did this back in the day when he was the sharpest phaser in the drawer and survived to tell the tale.

    Timo Saloniemi
     
  9. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Location:
    Discofan
    I could quote Admiral Pike on this: "You think the rules don't apply to you. There's greatness in you, but there's not an ounce of humility. You use pure luck to justify anything. You think that you can't make mistakes, but there's going to come a moment when you realize you're wrong about that, and you're going to get yourself and everyone under your command killed."

    Looks like right on the money for that one incident.
     
  10. anh165

    anh165 Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2012
    It has been easily explained in the scene.

    Joachim or another Augment: "They're still running with their shields down..."

    Khan: "Of course, we're all one big happy fleet!"
     
    publiusr likes this.
  11. Bry_Sinclair

    Bry_Sinclair Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2009
    Location:
    Orbiting Urectum
    If they had just beamed Khan off and took him into custody then his followers would've moved heaven and earth to get him back--it's what indoctrinated people do to please the one they follow.
     
  12. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    ^When were they supposed to do that? Before Khan's attack they don't know he's a threat, and after Khan's attack we rarely see Our Heroes in a position to be operating transporters due to damage to the ship. They may have been able to work them while within the nebula, but the only time it comes up is when Kirk suggests beaming aboard Reliant to shut down Genesis, and he's shut down so quickly that it's unclear whether transporters are even functional at that point.
     
  13. arch101

    arch101 Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Location:
    Quincy, MA
    It wouldn't have worked for plot reasons, but I always assumed, at the end of the film, that the Enterprise crew could have saved themselves and killed off Khan by completely destroying the wrecked Reliant before the Genesis device goes off. Like I said, would have been too easy.
     
  14. Discofan

    Discofan Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2018
    Location:
    Discofan
    Or beamed him to the brig as soon as his shields went down (along with whoever was still alive but it looks like he was the only one).
     
    arch101 likes this.
  15. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    His shields were already down because of the nebula.

    I imagine destroying Reliant might just have caused the Genesis device to detonate prematurely or tech tech bigger problem...
     
  16. publiusr

    publiusr Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    Location:
    publiusr
    True.

    That might have set it off early, incompletely...ugh
     
  17. Timo

    Timo Fleet Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2003
    Indeed, we probably have to take David Marcus' word for it (because he should know): once Khan pushes that interface, Genesis is already as good as detonated, and the countdown is the only thing that's keeping the effect from being felt by our heroes yet...

    Whether transporters would work in the nebula is unknown. Kirk threatens to board the Reliant with those, but perhaps this would not have worked in practice?

    Timo Saloniemi
     
    publiusr likes this.
  18. DonIago

    DonIago Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2001
    Location:
    Burlington, VT, USA
    Yeah, we don't know for sure. David says there's no point in beaming aboard in terms of stopping Genesis, but we don't know whether beaming aboard would have been impossible in any case. Considering that the nebula's effects were so bad even viewscreens weren't working properly, it's hard for me to imagine that transporting would be a great idea.
     
  19. Maurice

    Maurice Fact Trekker Premium Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2005
    Location:
    One ferry ride from Starfleet HQ
    Roddenberry suggested an alternative that would have made Khan look smarter and Kirk less foolish, but they ignored it.

    What he wrote was....

    Excerpt from memo to Harve Bennett from Gene Roddenberry dated Sept. 2, 1981, page 4.

    [...] However, we can keep Khan's treachery
    alive by doing something we often did in the series, i.e., playing
    the starship's “protective armor" as consisting of the basic
    protective forcefields which surround the entire vessel in times of
    emergency, plus the more localized ultra-high energy deflectors
    which are even more powerful but create an enormous drain on ship's
    power.

    In putting up forcefields or protective forcefields or forcefield
    shields
    (whatever you prefer to call them), starship Enterprise is
    protected unless the other vessel is allowed to get in too close
    where a point blank concentrated phaser strike could rupture the
    forcefield protection (which is why the ship has the heavier
    deflectors for just such protection in critical battle situations).

    Now, this allows Khan to use his cleverness and tricks to steadily
    get in closer and closer, perhaps even using a transmitted comment
    from Chekov to put Kirk off guard. Then at the last split second,
    Kirk sees what is happening, but it is too late to get the powerful
    deflectors into place, and the Enterprise is heavily damaged just as
    described.[...]​
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
    publiusr likes this.
  20. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2009
    Location:
    North Wales
    Well they do call yellow alert and "energise defence fields" - it's not clear what those fields are, but I always assumed it was a sort of secondary protective screen around the Bridge and upper saucer (as indicated by the graphic)
     
    publiusr and DonIago like this.