Another Voyager 1st-time watch thread

[Shatnertage]

The next episode is...

"Remember"

I'm torn on this one. The poster immediately above me thinks it's superb (if I'm watching in the right order), and I can see why people like it. It's an "idea" show, and I usually like idea shows. I kind of liked it, but there's a lot that I don't like, too.

What I liked:

It's a Torres episode, and we don't get too many of them. Usually she's just TECHING the TECH and occasionally making snarky remarks. I still feel that there's a lot more to this character, and I'm hoping we get to see a lot more of her.

I LOVED Tuvok's demeanor when Janeway was talking to the Itarran leader guy--suspicious and protective, but supremely logical and controlled. At this stage, I think you could have him sitting at a table reviewing crew fitness reports and I'd think it was Emmy material. At the party, too, when Janeway has her little telepathic swoon--it's not anything he says, it's just the way he reacts. Tim Russ really played Tuvok well.

Kim has a girlfriend! Well, for the week. Good for him. A small detail, but it's nice that they gave him something to do.

It's good to get to see the crew interact with another civilization peacefully.

Neelix really knows how to throw a party.

A few great Janeway moments, too.

What I didn't like:

When I saw the first dream sequence, I thought, "Oh yippee, it's "Sub Rosa" all over again." Not the worst thing, because I've got a soft spot in my heart for that episode.

When I found out she was reliving someone else's life, I thought, "Hmmm. It's "Sub Rosa" meets "The Inner Light."" Interesting.

When I learned that the Itarrans were telepathic, it became "Sub Rosa" meets "The Inner Light" and then has a heart-to-heart with "Violations."

So it got me thinking that maybe the episode was a bit...derivative.

Then there's the sledgehammer of morality: Genocide is Bad. I'm not at all disputing that, it's just that it came across a bit heavy-handed. And why didn't the elderly Itarran woman try to do the telepathic thing with any of her own people before? I know she selected Torres for the job because of her strong spirit, but surely there must have been some among her own species that were just as fearless.

And I didn't get whether the Recessives were biologically distinct from the Itarrans, or if they were just Itarran Luddites. Not that it makes much difference--it's wrong to eliminate either group--but it just seemed ambiguous.

Finally, the Itarran leader seemed to be younger than the elderly woman, and I'm guessing he'd be in grade school or younger at the time of the genocide. Why did Torres accuse him personally? I didn't think he had anything to do with the genocide, though by continuing the silence he was guilty of abetting it after the fact.

In general, I could see where it was going, but it didn't quite make it there for me.

 

[T.D. Possum]

I'd rather forget "Remember". But HOORAY! I found another person who likes "Sub Rosa"! Shall we form a club or something?

 

[Shatnertage]

That might be a good idea--there's not many of us.

My take on it, that I've shared on here before, is that, like "Spock's Brain," it's a great comedy episode. I really prefer those to the stuffier, but technically better, episodes. It's fun.

The turning point for me is when Picard walks on the bridge, which is covered in fog. He asks what's going on, and Riker says, absolutely deadpan, "It just rolled in."

Jonathan Frakes directed the episode, and I'm guessing he knew exactly what he was doing. This one has a really high re-watch value for me.

 

[T.D. Possum]

The turning point for me is when Picard walks on the bridge, which is covered in fog. He asks what's going on, and Riker says, absolutely deadpan, "It just rolled in."

Ah, yes. In my family, we like "Dinna li' the cannel!" My husband, brothers, and I all shout that on a surprisingly regular basis.

I can't remember - have you seen "Threshold" on your Voyager rewatch yet?

 

[Shatnertage]

Yes, but it was before I started this thread.

That one, not so much fun, though the way that Janeway made it all a learning moment for Paris made me think it might have been a bad afterschool special, which made it kind of funny.

The rewatch value of that is moot, because the first words out of my wife's mouth after it ended were, "I never want to see that again."

 

[Shatnertage]

Another episode...

"Sacred Ground"

Now this is one that I really liked. Great to see Harry Groener, aka Tam Elbrun from "Tin Man," even if it was just a small part. As an aside, I wouldn't have minded Voyager running into Tin Man and Tam at some point--if definitely would have been better than the Ferengi from "The Price." I think they could have told another good story about those two.

A minor quibble: If the shrine is so dangerous, shouldn't they keep the door locked? Or is it a Darwin Awards kind of thing down on the planet to see who's dumb enough to wander in there without the right preparation?

As soon as Kes said, "Wait, I want to see what's here," and started walking towards the light, I hit pause and said, "Two words: Willy Wonka." The whole thing with getting separated from the group and finding her doom reminded me of that movie (the original--I haven't seen the Depp version).

There's not a lot that goes on--no battles, no imminent warp core breach. Just some good character moments, mostly for Janeway and Neelix. I also liked how protective Chipotle and Tuvok were towards their captain--that struck me as very "true" emotionally.

It was a bit jarring to see George's mother (from Seinfeld) as one of the (maybe) spirits. But it didn't take me out of the story.

In the end, I was blown away by such a sensitive, tolerant depiction of faith. Five minutes in, I told my wife, "I'm really liking this one...unless it turns out that the spirits are really a computer, and Janeway talks it to death." The script just shows way more maturity and nuance than we'd seen just two episodes earlier.

This really foreshadowed the whole "man of science/man of faith" thing from Lost, which shows that there are ways to talk about things we can't quantify in an intelligent way. Like another one of my favorites, "Tapestry," it ends with more questions than it starts with: we don't find out the true nature of what happened in the shrine, but we know that Janeway made a leap of faith.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

I love the way Janeway looked as the EMH explained away her experience scientifically. She allowed him his moment, and then walked away with a face that knew more than that computer could ever hope to know.

 

[Shatnertage]

Yes! For once I didn't mind the technobabble explanation, because we weren't supposed to buy it at face value. And was it just me, or did they mix down the Doc's mic as she turned her head--it might be totally subjective, but it sounded like he was getting quieter, like we were going inside Janeway's mind.

Great, great ending that leaves it up to the viewer--I love it when they treat us with some respect!

 

[JanewayRulz!]

It wasn't you, we and Janeway were focusing on her experience, not his "explanation".

 

[Shatnertage]

It's time for the next episode...
"Warlord"
It's not a promising start, as we've got Paris, Kim, and Neelix on Risa. Wait, this is the Delta Quadrant, so it can't be Risa.

Oh noes! It's a holodeck pleasure planet! Hitting every cliche in the book, from foofy drinks to Caribbean music. Seriously, the 24th century idea of relaxation is Sandals? I expected Michael Scott to pop up and say, "It's all inclusive!"

All senior officers are summoned to the bridge and...credits? That's it?

Officially, for the moment at least, The Worst Tease Ever.

The credits are great as always, though. And since the DVR info says that an alien is emplanting his consciousness into Kes, I've got an idea that they're about to meet...an alien.

On the bridge, Tuvok says that the alien ship is having trouble, which makes me hit pause and talk to my wife about one of my Trek pet peeves. I'll share it with you, and you can tell me if I'm off base here.

Most of the time, when Trek folks encounter non-human races in space, they call them aliens. That doesn't ring true to me. It would be like if we were on a Mediterranean cruise and, as we sipped our foofy drinks on the pool deck, I pointed out a passing dingy to you and said, "look, it's a foreign ship." Out in space, there's no such thing as "aliens." They're just other species out there.

And guess what? In Voyager, the Trek crew are the aliens. So that just bugged me, particularly coming from Tuvok, who would never make that kind of semantic error. Yes, I know that it's there for the viewers who need to be reminded after 700 episodes that space travel in fact involves encountering non-human races, but still, it bugs me as being imprecise.

Back to the action. The non-alien ship appears to be on fire, but it's probably just a plasma tech wave burst so it doesn't necessarily conflict with what I learned about vacuums in Astro class. It goes kablooey, but they beam three (make that two) survivors over.

We don't know it at the time, but the dying survivor transplants his mind into Kes, setting up the action.

Great break-up scene with Neelix, and it's apparent that Jennifer Lien is really doing something with the material. For someone who spends most of her time being sweet and supportive, she plays a convincing tyrant (whose name happens to be Tyrran, which makes remembering it easy).

This episode reminded me a lot of classic Doctor Who in a good way. We've got planetary conflicts going on, but see them played out with about a dozen actors, extras included. People see massive battle fleets on viewscreens, but the viewer doesn't. Massive aerial bombardments are suggested by strategic camera-shaking. Good writing to keep the production team from having to stage SFX they can't afford. The transferred consciousness thing is also pretty familiar--off the top of my head I can remember "The Hand of Fear" and "The Brain of Morbius" puttering around in similar areas. So I'm not at all disappointed that an entire government is overthrown by a gang of four.

This is Kes' (or rather Lien's) episode, and she really delivers. She just whips around the screen with absolute rage, I totally believe that this is Tyrran. I'm very, very impressed.

Then we get a Tyrran/Tuvok confrontation scene. Total awesomeness. There's a great shot where the camera's shooting the side of Tuvok's face, and we can see his jaw clenching as he struggles to remain in control. Great homage to the Ardra/Troi-Picard attempted seduction from "Devil's Due," but with an undercurrent of real menace. Tyrran is pretty evil, but a lot of fun to watch.

Great dream confrontation between Tyrran and Kes. I'm really liking the way Lien is using body language in this one.

A funny breather, during the Voyage conference room rundown, easing the tension a little. As Neelix is making his case for going down with the commando team, Kim is sitting behind him. For some reason, as Neelix finishes talking, Kim looks down at Neelix's butt. Did Neelix get so worked up that he let a gaseous anomaly slip out? The actors joked about Phillips' gaseous anomaly's at this year's Vegas con. Whatever the reason, it cracks me up.

Back to the serious stuff--fun Action Trek as Team Voyager takes over. Kes is saved. Tyrran is banished to a USB drive.

Thoughtful epilogue, as Kes struggles with what she's done over the past few days (weeks?) The experience will change her. I hope we're going to see some development of this.

This is one of the best episodes I've seen in a while. We had two duds followed by two great ones. Coming off the worst tease, this was a really pleasant surprise. I'd love to see more episodes like it.

 

[T.D. Possum]

One of my favorites. I want to cheer when I see Jennifer Lien make her big entrance as Tyrran. I want to cheer just thinking about it, in fact.

YAY!

 

[Shatnertage]

Glad I'm not the only one (well, me and my wife aren't the only ones) who liked this episode.

I thought about another wrinkle in the "alien ship" thing. Tuvok said it. He's a Vulcan. For him, the entire bridge crew is alien.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

You're all wrong about the use of the word "alien" in Star Trek in general.
Alien basically just means an outsider, someone from a different place- if Tuvok talks about "aliens", he's meaning people not on Voyager or from the Federation so it makes perfect sense for them to use that terminology, its not like he's saying "extra-terrestrial".

I like Sub-Rosa too by the way, I loved how natural the chemistry was between all the actors in season 7 and Sub Rosa really is made enjoyable by not only that but the absurdity. You're right that "Remember" is somewhat derivative but I try not to get too hung up on that and just mark episodes based on enjoyability.

As for Warlord, it was pretty unoriginal and I despised the sets, it all felt very early TNG (seasons 1, 2) cheap looking. Lien was good in this episode but "Before and After" is clearly the star Kes episode for me and is one of the strongest of the entire season.

Also, how come you skipped over "Future's End"?

 

[Shatnertage]

^^^I guess Spike didn't show it--I'm just watching these as my DVR catches them,

And that "alien" thing still bugs me. I can see how "alien" could just mean unfamiliar, but that far out in space everything is alien, isn't it?

I can understand your take on "Warlord" looking cheap, but like I said, it's part of the charm for me. I'll keep my eyes open for "Before and After."

 

[You_Will_Fail]

Future's End is on youtube if you want to watch it, a lot of people like it but personally I didn't.

 

[Commander_Kaz]

Future's End is on youtube if you want to watch it, a lot of people like it but personally I didn't.

It's one of those episodes you just have to laugh along with.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

How can you not like an ep with the line, (Chak to Kate) "She has your legs."

 

[vas2009]

Or my personal fav...STARLING: Captain, you've got some cohunes. LOL!!

 

[Shatnertage]

Hey! Guess what turned up on my DVR last night:

"Future's End, Part I"

I might as well say at the start that, well, I didn't like it.

Some background: my wife's from LA. I spent 4.5 years going to grad school in LA. We both like Voyager. So when we saw in the blurb that the Voyager crew goes to LA, we thought it might be kind of fun.

And it was, but in the hammiest, most OTT way possible. Like in the opening shot in the High Sierras. As soon as Hippie Starling said, "Far out," I knew it was going to be one of those episodes.

I really think that Trek can take a derivative, border-line dumb idea ("a holodeck episode set in the Wild West! With Spiner hamming it up as several bad guys!") and turn it into something fun, thanks to (in that ep) the little touches--Troi as "the Durango Kid," that closing shot of the E-D sailing off into the sunset. Even though I really like the thought-provoking episodes like "Tuvix" I don't expect that every episode. I like a little dumb fun every now and then.

But this was just a bit too dumb for my liking. It's like they had to hit every cliche they could in the script, like Starling is wealthy, and therefore Evil. Ugh.

That, and unless there's a surprise twist that Captain Braxton was actually trying to stir up shit in the beginning, the plot itself makes no sense. If Braxton really wanted to prevent Voyager from traveling into the future and blowing up the solar system, engaging them in battle right in front of a time vortex seems like a pretty silly way to do it. Why not materialize a few light years away, zip over to Voyager, fry the ship's computer with some 29th-century technobabble, then watch the warp core overload? To be a humanitarian, give everyone time to evacuate.

Seriously, if there's no twist about Braxton, he's a real moron.

They did the Comedic Contemporary Trek thing much better in TVH. From a logistical point of view, why did they even need Tuvok to go down to Earth? If he'd have been discovered, that would have completely changed Earth's history. It just seems like a dumb risk to take. It would have been redeemed if, when Sarah Silverman asked about his ears, Paris had said, "My friend is obviously....Chinese." But no, we just got "It's a family trait."

My wife's first questions when the team beamed down, "Did we really dress like that in the 1990s?"

Me, pointing at Tuvok; "If we were in MC Hammer videos." Seriously, did they have to make the most dignified character on the show look so ridiculous?

More technobabble about time travel, lampshaded when Janeway points out how annoying time paradoxes are.

When we saw "To be continued," my wife said, "So it was so crappy they had to make it into two episodes? Why couldn't we get two episodes of one of the good ones?"

I agree with her, but we're still watching Part II tonight, hoping it gets better.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

It really is like Braga and Menosky said "Let's have the Voyager crew go back to Earth in the 90s!" and then that was it, they just wrote a load of random crap because they were so in love with the basic concept - which didn't even make any sense.