Nemesis is my favourite Chakotay episode. That doesn't say much, but I liked it.
Another Voyager 1st-time watch thread
- Thread starter Shatnertage
- Start date
I'm just a magnet for bad TV luck. While waiting for the next VOY disc to arrive, I decided to watch some Doctor Who.
The episode I chose? Delta and the Freaking Bannermen.
Suffice it to say, it made "Nemesis" look like that Royal Shakespeare Company production of Hamlet with Sir Patrick and David Tennant that was on Masterpiece Theater a while ago.
I think I'll spin the wheel with "Revulsion" tonight.
The episode I chose? Delta and the Freaking Bannermen.
Suffice it to say, it made "Nemesis" look like that Royal Shakespeare Company production of Hamlet with Sir Patrick and David Tennant that was on Masterpiece Theater a while ago.
I think I'll spin the wheel with "Revulsion" tonight.
While I can appreciate where they were trying to go with it I usually skip over this one when re-watching the series....
My faith in VOY was rewarded last night when I watched...
"Revulsion"
It's funny how it's all in the execution. If I had known this was a Seven-heavy episode featuring a sentient hologram gone nuts, I probably would have passed. But it was great.
First of all, the opening scene (after the tease with the freaked-out hologram) was pure gold. A roast for Tuvok? And Paris is the emcee? Brilliant. I loved Tim Russ's timing on the "I have grown to respect many of you...others, I have grown to tolerate." It's right up there with Shatner's "I have always had the highest respect for Federation officials...until now" in TTWT.
Then the story starts in earnest, and it's a good one, though minimalistic. Doc/Torres vs. a demented hologram has potential, and it delivers. The guy playing the hologram did a great job of being almost completely contained, then going completely over the top. I loved his Howard Hughes speech about the filth of organics. Some suspense, and in the end Torres saves herself.
The Doctor's own channeling of Howard Hughes with Paris back in Sickbay had me in stitches.
I liked the Seven/Kim stuff even more. I know I just said that I didn't like Seven much, but either she's growing on me or Jeri Ryan's doing a better job with her, because she was legitimately entertaining in this episode. So was Harry.
The big moment, of course, was her, "Take off your clothes. Let's copulate" line. You've got to admit Harry had it coming. It was a very LaForge-like attempt at clueless seduction.
I'm not totally sure why Harry didn't take her up on her offer. He's obviously trying to cruise her already, and he's not attached.
I've just answered my question--it's the same reason why he was still an ensign after 7 years. He just didn't have "it."
"It" is whatever made Picard get stabbed by the Naussicaan and show a propensity for good risk-taking throughout his career. So he's not going to get the girl, and he's going to be taking orders for the rest of his life.
Seriously, the show would have been much more interesting if he'd have said "fine" and we cut to Seven walking back to her alcove the next morning.
All in all, this episode did a good job of balancing serious stuff with comedy, and it really delivered. Good to see the slump was short-lived.
"Revulsion"
It's funny how it's all in the execution. If I had known this was a Seven-heavy episode featuring a sentient hologram gone nuts, I probably would have passed. But it was great.
First of all, the opening scene (after the tease with the freaked-out hologram) was pure gold. A roast for Tuvok? And Paris is the emcee? Brilliant. I loved Tim Russ's timing on the "I have grown to respect many of you...others, I have grown to tolerate." It's right up there with Shatner's "I have always had the highest respect for Federation officials...until now" in TTWT.
Then the story starts in earnest, and it's a good one, though minimalistic. Doc/Torres vs. a demented hologram has potential, and it delivers. The guy playing the hologram did a great job of being almost completely contained, then going completely over the top. I loved his Howard Hughes speech about the filth of organics. Some suspense, and in the end Torres saves herself.
The Doctor's own channeling of Howard Hughes with Paris back in Sickbay had me in stitches.
I liked the Seven/Kim stuff even more. I know I just said that I didn't like Seven much, but either she's growing on me or Jeri Ryan's doing a better job with her, because she was legitimately entertaining in this episode. So was Harry.
The big moment, of course, was her, "Take off your clothes. Let's copulate" line. You've got to admit Harry had it coming. It was a very LaForge-like attempt at clueless seduction.
I'm not totally sure why Harry didn't take her up on her offer. He's obviously trying to cruise her already, and he's not attached.
I've just answered my question--it's the same reason why he was still an ensign after 7 years. He just didn't have "it."
"It" is whatever made Picard get stabbed by the Naussicaan and show a propensity for good risk-taking throughout his career. So he's not going to get the girl, and he's going to be taking orders for the rest of his life.
Seriously, the show would have been much more interesting if he'd have said "fine" and we cut to Seven walking back to her alcove the next morning.
All in all, this episode did a good job of balancing serious stuff with comedy, and it really delivered. Good to see the slump was short-lived.
It (the ep) also did something we don't always see. It followed up on the events of "Day of Honor" in the first act and the final scene. 
B'Elanna Torres... you ROCK!
B'Elanna Torres... you ROCK!
Recently I complained about Chakotay’s smug comment in Nemesis: “On the sphere I come from we try to find other ways to resolve differences. Peaceful solutions, negotiations.” I complained about this comment in relation to Chakotay’s pre-Voyager past, but now I’m going to complain that Voyager pays lip service to this notion and doesn’t follow through. The one most consistent defining feature of Janeway’s character is her absolute uncompromising nature.
In The Raven, she’s trying to negotiate passage through B’omar space, but negotiations hit a standstill when passage in a manner that respects B’omar security concerns isn’t fast enough for her tastes. The B’omar tell her that violation of their space would be an act of war and they would respond with overwhelming force. But Seven hijacks a shuttle and goes off half-cocked into B’omar space, so Janeway sends Tuvok and Paris after her in another shuttle, then follows with Voyager, blows up a few B’omar ships, recovers her crew, and leaves the area before the B’omar can catch them. Another happy ending for Voyager.
In Scientific Methods, what the aliens are doing is, I think we would all agree, wrong, but they kind of have Janeway over a barrel. At no point does she even attempt to negotiate a way out of the situation. She demands. She threatens. When that doesn’t work, she plunges Voyager into a pulsar, frightening the aliens into fleeing. One of the alien ships is destroyed in the process, and one gets the impression that the audience is expected to cheer. To absolutely nobody’s surprise — Kim says he’s surprised, but doesn’t sound like he means it, and certainly nobody on this side of the screen was in any suspense — Voyager defies the 20-to-1 odds and makes it through the pulsar without a scratch. Another happy ending for Voyager.
This goes all the way back to Caretaker. We have half of Janeway’s Starfleet crew and half of Chakotay’s Maquis crew surviving the events of the episode, how are we going to integrate them? Answer: It’s a Starfleet crew 100%, the Maquis way of doing things is over, and that’s that. Questioning that is grounds for a beating.
And since it’s a Starfleet crew with Janeway in command and no contact with Starfleet Command, other Starfleet vessels, or anyone in any way connected to the UFP, Janeway is answerable to absolutely nobody. She isn’t a captain, she’s an autocrat. There isn’t even a ship’s doctor who can relieve her on medical grounds. (I wonder what would happen if the EMH tried to assert such authority, but my guess is Janeway would simply deactivate him or alter his programming.)
She bullies her way around the Delta Quadrant in her badass ship channelling Eric “Respect my authoritay!” Cartmann. Sometimes she offers a deal in which Voyager gets everything she wants in exchange for nothing they will miss, but if the other guy doesn’t take that offer, she rolls up her sleeves, pummels the other guy senseless, takes what she needs, and walks away unscathed, every time. It’s getting pretty tiresome.
By the way, my New Year’s Resolution is to be less grumpy.
In The Raven, she’s trying to negotiate passage through B’omar space, but negotiations hit a standstill when passage in a manner that respects B’omar security concerns isn’t fast enough for her tastes. The B’omar tell her that violation of their space would be an act of war and they would respond with overwhelming force. But Seven hijacks a shuttle and goes off half-cocked into B’omar space, so Janeway sends Tuvok and Paris after her in another shuttle, then follows with Voyager, blows up a few B’omar ships, recovers her crew, and leaves the area before the B’omar can catch them. Another happy ending for Voyager.
In Scientific Methods, what the aliens are doing is, I think we would all agree, wrong, but they kind of have Janeway over a barrel. At no point does she even attempt to negotiate a way out of the situation. She demands. She threatens. When that doesn’t work, she plunges Voyager into a pulsar, frightening the aliens into fleeing. One of the alien ships is destroyed in the process, and one gets the impression that the audience is expected to cheer. To absolutely nobody’s surprise — Kim says he’s surprised, but doesn’t sound like he means it, and certainly nobody on this side of the screen was in any suspense — Voyager defies the 20-to-1 odds and makes it through the pulsar without a scratch. Another happy ending for Voyager.
This goes all the way back to Caretaker. We have half of Janeway’s Starfleet crew and half of Chakotay’s Maquis crew surviving the events of the episode, how are we going to integrate them? Answer: It’s a Starfleet crew 100%, the Maquis way of doing things is over, and that’s that. Questioning that is grounds for a beating.
And since it’s a Starfleet crew with Janeway in command and no contact with Starfleet Command, other Starfleet vessels, or anyone in any way connected to the UFP, Janeway is answerable to absolutely nobody. She isn’t a captain, she’s an autocrat. There isn’t even a ship’s doctor who can relieve her on medical grounds. (I wonder what would happen if the EMH tried to assert such authority, but my guess is Janeway would simply deactivate him or alter his programming.)
She bullies her way around the Delta Quadrant in her badass ship channelling Eric “Respect my authoritay!” Cartmann. Sometimes she offers a deal in which Voyager gets everything she wants in exchange for nothing they will miss, but if the other guy doesn’t take that offer, she rolls up her sleeves, pummels the other guy senseless, takes what she needs, and walks away unscathed, every time. It’s getting pretty tiresome.
By the way, my New Year’s Resolution is to be less grumpy.
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^ Just so you know, some of that stuff might be considered spoilers to Shatnertage. I don't think he's on those yet, since he just started the season.
He should be pretty soon, since those are fairly early Season 4, but not quite yet...
I think I tried resolving to be less grumpy one year and I just got grumpier whenever I failed at being nice. I wish you better luck!
He should be pretty soon, since those are fairly early Season 4, but not quite yet...
I think I tried resolving to be less grumpy one year and I just got grumpier whenever I failed at being nice. I wish you better luck!
Sorry. He had already discussed Nemesis and Revulsion, so I figured The Raven and Scientific Method were on the table for discussion. (Kinda neat how we’re at the same place in the series.) Just to be safe, I’ll go back and spoiler-tag it.
Anyway, The Raven...
Anyway, The Raven...
...highlights another reason why it was inappropriate to make this a Starfleet crew. They are in no contact with the Federation, half the crew are not Federation citizens and are actually enemy combatants of the Federation, and they shouldn’t go around the Delta Quadrant presenting themselves as representatives of the Federation.
It’s not like the B’omar were being unreasonable in stating that violating their space, blowing up their ships, and killing their people would be considered an act of war. It is an act war. Technically, a state of war probably exists between the B’omar and the UFP as a result of these actions. Due to the vast distance between their territories the practical implications of a state of war are very limited, but still, this is insane.
It’s not like the B’omar were being unreasonable in stating that violating their space, blowing up their ships, and killing their people would be considered an act of war. It is an act war. Technically, a state of war probably exists between the B’omar and the UFP as a result of these actions. Due to the vast distance between their territories the practical implications of a state of war are very limited, but still, this is insane.
Thanks for looking out for me, froot. I think "The Raven" is on the table tonight.
I wonder if it’s significant that my first episode of 2011 is called “Year of Hell, Part I.”
Nevermore! Which is what I kept on wanting to shout at the screen during an episode called...
"The Raven"
Seven is starting to grow on me. By the way, are those her ribs that we see poking through her new outfit (in both the front and back) or is it part of the outfit? Just wondering.
Generally one of the things I like least about Star Trek is all the teaching and lecturing about what it means to be human. When it was Kirk and McCoy taking a minute to take the piss out of Spock at the end of each episode, it was kind of charming, but when it turned into these ponderous hour-long lessons for Data it lost its charm. So when the episode started with a life lesson for Seven, I groaned.
But it turned out to be a really good episode with a mix of action, humor, and the "human" element that marks the best of Trek. The Bomars (or, as I called them, the Bonars) were good comedy aliens who, as Captrek said, weren't entirely unreasonable in their demands. But why did they have to wear umpire masks?
I don't totally get why the Hansens' ship was 10,000 light years outside of Borg space--if the Borg were assimilating people there 20 years ago, wouldn't it be in the middle of Borg space? Or did they just pass through? Didn't ruin the episode for me.
Not sure that I like super-powered Seven, and you'd think by now they'd have made it harder to escape from the ship. Here's my low-tech solution: put something like the boot on each shuttlecraft (maybe it hooks directly onto the floor) and have the key on the bridge. That might slow 'em down.
And I seriously think that Voyager's lost a shuttlecraft in each episode so far this season. If you lose a shuttle, do they dock your replicator rations to make another one?
This was a fun episode to watch--well, the parts with young Annika cowering in terror before she was assimilated weren't really fun, but you know what I mean.
Semi-seriously, I think I know what I don't like about Seven: like everyone else on the show (except Tuvok) she's got lousy hairstyling.
Obviously the producers put a great deal of effort into getting an attractive woman for the part, and keeping her Borg-ness minimal to keep her looking decent. So then why give her that awful hair? They either should have let her wear it long or given her a buzz-cut.
In-universe, it doesn't make any sense that Seven would spend time on her hair each morning, as she probably has to with that 'do. She'd view it as inefficient. That's why I could see her with a buzz-cut. Not Ilia bald, but shaved down enough so that she doesn't really have to maintain it. That was the mentality I had when I had that hairstyle in my early 20s. Or they could have given her something close-cropped but more feminine.
All I know is that what they gave her isn't working.
"The Raven"
Seven is starting to grow on me. By the way, are those her ribs that we see poking through her new outfit (in both the front and back) or is it part of the outfit? Just wondering.
Generally one of the things I like least about Star Trek is all the teaching and lecturing about what it means to be human. When it was Kirk and McCoy taking a minute to take the piss out of Spock at the end of each episode, it was kind of charming, but when it turned into these ponderous hour-long lessons for Data it lost its charm. So when the episode started with a life lesson for Seven, I groaned.
But it turned out to be a really good episode with a mix of action, humor, and the "human" element that marks the best of Trek. The Bomars (or, as I called them, the Bonars) were good comedy aliens who, as Captrek said, weren't entirely unreasonable in their demands. But why did they have to wear umpire masks?
I don't totally get why the Hansens' ship was 10,000 light years outside of Borg space--if the Borg were assimilating people there 20 years ago, wouldn't it be in the middle of Borg space? Or did they just pass through? Didn't ruin the episode for me.
Not sure that I like super-powered Seven, and you'd think by now they'd have made it harder to escape from the ship. Here's my low-tech solution: put something like the boot on each shuttlecraft (maybe it hooks directly onto the floor) and have the key on the bridge. That might slow 'em down.
And I seriously think that Voyager's lost a shuttlecraft in each episode so far this season. If you lose a shuttle, do they dock your replicator rations to make another one?
This was a fun episode to watch--well, the parts with young Annika cowering in terror before she was assimilated weren't really fun, but you know what I mean.
Semi-seriously, I think I know what I don't like about Seven: like everyone else on the show (except Tuvok) she's got lousy hairstyling.
Obviously the producers put a great deal of effort into getting an attractive woman for the part, and keeping her Borg-ness minimal to keep her looking decent. So then why give her that awful hair? They either should have let her wear it long or given her a buzz-cut.
In-universe, it doesn't make any sense that Seven would spend time on her hair each morning, as she probably has to with that 'do. She'd view it as inefficient. That's why I could see her with a buzz-cut. Not Ilia bald, but shaved down enough so that she doesn't really have to maintain it. That was the mentality I had when I had that hairstyle in my early 20s. Or they could have given her something close-cropped but more feminine.
All I know is that what they gave her isn't working.
I think all of the crew are (sans Neelix and Kes) Federation citizens, even the ones that fought in the Maquis. It's just that half of them are not Starfleet. Some are ex-Starfleet. Seven's technically a Federation citizen as well; she was just kidnapped at a young age.
I guess it could be up for debate whether or not they should have bothered representing the military, but they are representatives of the UFP simply because of where and to whom they were born.
...If they docked replicator rations for losing a shuttle, Chakotay would be stuck eating Neelix's food for the rest of the trip.
Shat, OMG. The Boot for shuttlecraft. That brought a smile to my face. And I have the flu. So I needed to smile.
I told you had a sneaky suspicion Seven might start to grow on you. And you haven't even yet seen any of my favorite Seven episodes.
Agreed on the hair!
"The Raven" causes problems for me 'cause I want to punch Seven's parents right in their faces.
A couple of my faves are next on your viewing list! :-D
I told you had a sneaky suspicion Seven might start to grow on you. And you haven't even yet seen any of my favorite Seven episodes.
Agreed on the hair!
"The Raven" causes problems for me 'cause I want to punch Seven's parents right in their faces.
A couple of my faves are next on your viewing list! :-D
I believe it’s stated in DS9:For the Cause that the Maquis renounced their Federation citizenship.
Whether or not the UFP recognizes that renouncement, they are what today we would call enemy combatants of the Federation. If American citizens who joined Al Qaeda committed acts of war against European nations, I don’t think the US would be considered responsible for those acts of war.
It’s true that Janeway is a Federation citizen and a captain in the Federation military, but based on her actions in episodes like The Raven, I think she’s gone rogue. Federation policy doesn’t permit this kind of behavior. It’s very similar to the conduct of Captain Maxwell and the Phoenix in TNG:The Wounded, but without nearly as good an excuse.
^ I think that Article 47, subsection 4.7 of the Federation charter says that, if the other aliens are wearing umpire masks, you can do whatever you want. So Janeway was definitely being a good Federation citizen by screwing around with them.
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