Another TOS origin story?

[Christopher]

E:TFA put Kirk's age at a bit under thirty, making it over four years before "The Deadly Years." (No doubt based on The Making of Star Trek, published during the second season, in which Kirk's bio said he was 34 and had commanded the ship for over four years.) So if Rand had been "almost seventeen" (physiologically and experientially) in E:TFA, she would've been about nineteen in her onscreen appearances. Which isn't credible at all, especially (as Pauln6 says) given "Charlie X," where she was clearly portrayed as being significantly older than the seventeen-year-old Charlie. It was a very strange choice on McIntyre's part.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Maybe part of the reason McIntyre refused to be interviewed for that novel chronology book...

 

[Kelso]

I don't care how old she was meant to be, she looked like a woman in her thirties. I'll go with that.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I don't think Janice's age being off by a few years is reason to avoid doing an interview for VoI.
Unless, of course, the guy doing the interviews was a real canon nazi...

INTERVIEWER: So, Ms. McIntyre, what did you think gave you the right to rape Star Trek for a few bucks? What makes you think you're better than Gene Rodenberry?

McINTYRE: Excuse me?

INTERVIEWER: Did it feel good? To piss all over established canon? I mean, you had to have a reason to upset millions of Trekkers with your sick, vile actions. Perhaps for your next book you'll imply the Enterprise was refit on stardate 2537.2 instead of 4383.5? Or maybe you'll use McCoy's wrong middle name of "Edward" instead of the canon initial "H"? Or call the Enterprise-A "Galaxy class"? You make me sick, my dear!

McINTYRE: This interview is over.

 

[Christopher]

I don't care how old she was meant to be, she looked like a woman in her thirties. I'll go with that.

Yep. The actress was 36 at the time, actually a little older than Shatner and Nimoy. Which is older than I would've thought. And that makes McIntyre's choice to make her a teenager even more odd.

 

[Pauln6]

In fairness, at least McIntyre used Rand, even if she had the personality of a completely different character. All too often she's completely forgotten in spite of being one of the better developed characters in her early appearances. She was initially intended to be up there with McCoy and it's a great shame that her ill-judged enforced departure from the franchise has led people to forget that she was a main character.

Most of her appearances in subsequent novels and comics have been tiny cameos (and I realise that she didn't get much more than this in this story). She's never used as the Captain's aide on landing parties in TOS stories and there is rarely any foreshadowing of her role as an engineer, transporter operator, or communications officer (except in Traitor Winds where she is assigned to communications at Starfleet Intelligence).

I liked her little cameo in Ex Machina although I didn't wholly approve of the attempt to specify the paternity of her late child. I rather liked the ambiguity and the nudge nudge wink wink that Kirk might have been the father and that she might have left the ship because she was pregnant. Still, she's not a vulcan so she can lie through her teeth if she likes

I loved the fact that Traitor Winds focused beautifully on the supporting cast. I'd love a TMP era novel to give Janice a chance as the lead!

 

[Christopher]

I found the idea that Kirk might be the father to be totally inconsistent with what we saw onscreen and totally out of character for Kirk. Frankly I find it insulting to Kirk to suggest he'd be so unethical as to sleep with an enlisted crewwoman under his command. That would essentially be rape, because of the gross power inequality. Captain Kirk would absolutely never do that. And episodes like "The Naked Time" and "Miri" made it crystal clear that Kirk would never allow himself to act on his attraction to Rand or even let her see that he felt it. (We'll just ignore the bit in "Balance of Terror" where he hugged her on the bridge. The producers of TOS regretted that moment so much that they actually included it in their writers' bible as an example of how not to write a credible scene.)

 

[Pauln6]

I found the idea that Kirk might be the father to be totally inconsistent with what we saw onscreen and totally out of character for Kirk. Frankly I find it insulting to Kirk to suggest he'd be so unethical as to sleep with an enlisted crewwoman under his command. That would essentially be rape, because of the gross power inequality. Captain Kirk would absolutely never do that. And episodes like "The Naked Time" and "Miri" made it crystal clear that Kirk would never allow himself to act on his attraction to Rand or even let her see that he felt it. (We'll just ignore the bit in "Balance of Terror" where he hugged her on the bridge. The producers of TOS regretted that moment so much that they actually included it in their writers' bible as an example of how not to write a credible scene.)

Yeah a large part of me knows that's true but Kirk almost shagged Noel on the Sick Bay photocopier at the Christmas party so who knows what might happen in a moment of weakness? I'm not saying that it was a major possibility, I just liked the ambiguity that maybe, just maybe they did...

It's interesting what you say about the writers regretting Kirk hugging Rand when you compare that to Uhura snogging Spock on the transporter while on duty. In many ways the TOS writers had much higher standards!

 

[F. King Daniel]

^But why dredge up an obscure old novel just to discredit a small implication made in it? Why not just ignore it, or write an new Janice backstory?

 

[Pauln6]

In some ways I think it's nice to build on existing back stories. Sticking with the story that Janice had a child that died adds another dimension to her character. I was going to write a short story featuring her where plot B was her dealing with her guilt over the death of her daughter plus Sonak and Ciana on the transporter but sadly I lack dedication!

While it;s true that Kirk impregnating his own yeoman would be a terrible lapse in judgment I personally would never have been so bold as to discount it as a possibility! I like my heroes flawed

One of the things I really liked about Ex Machina was that it used the crew we see on the Rec Deck and weaved little character stories for them. I'd love to see more TMP era stories that expanded on these tertiary crewmen adding them to landing parties etc. I personally prefer it when the main characters bounce off some new characters. I get tired if all we get is a focus on the triumvirate.

EDIT: Come to think of it, it was the pitch-perfect relationship between McCoy and Natira that made Ex Machina such a pleasure to read.

 

[Christopher]

Yeah a large part of me knows that's true but Kirk almost shagged Noel on the Sick Bay photocopier at the Christmas party so who knows what might happen in a moment of weakness?

He did nothing of the kind. I'm amazed how many viewers mistake fantasy for reality here.

NOEL: I think we should try this again.
KIRK: Yes. Pick something unusual, an unusual suggestion, something we can both be sure of.
NOEL: (light turns) At the Christmas party, we met, we danced, you talked about the stars. I suggest now that it happened in a different way. You swept me off my feet and carried me to your cabin.

http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/11.htm

The whole point of that sequence was that in real life, nothing happened between them beyond a very minor flirtation that Kirk felt embarrassed about after the fact. That's why they could "be sure" that the implanted memory of a more intimate interaction was false.

And let's not forget later on -- even when Kirk has supposedly been brainwashed to feel overwhelming love for Helen, he's still able to shake it off with only a slight reminder of his duty, and within a minute he's quite callously sending Helen into a very dangerous maintenance duct full of lethal exposed cables.

First-season Kirk was not the Lothario he's stereotyped as today. Look at "Mudd's Women," where he was the only man other than Spock to be essentially unaffected by the women's enhanced allure. The original idea behind the character, the idea that prevailed through the first season and less so later on, was that he was a totally dedicated military man, someone who placed his duty above all personal concerns. The only times he strayed from that, usually, were times when he was under some kind of mental influence or otherwise not himself.

It's interesting what you say about the writers regretting Kirk hugging Rand when you compare that to Uhura snogging Spock on the transporter while on duty. In many ways the TOS writers had much higher standards!

Context. They regretted depicting the captain of a ship hugging his yeoman on the bridge in the middle of an enemy attack, a context in which a show of affection was obviously inappropriate and implausible. One could quibble about the appropriateness of Uhura's actions in the transporter room in the film, but it's not quite the same situation. And at least she's clearly the instigator there.

 

[Captain Robert April]

To be fair, Kirk and Rand were engaging in more of a "brace for impact" hug than a "hold me, I'm frightened" hug. The fact that he was far more fascinated by the revelation of the limited range of the Romulans' plasma weapon than the pretty blonde yeoman he was just "hugging", I think, backs up this p.o.v.

 

[Pauln6]

Yeah a large part of me knows that's true but Kirk almost shagged Noel on the Sick Bay photocopier at the Christmas party so who knows what might happen in a moment of weakness?

He did nothing of the kind. I'm amazed how many viewers mistake fantasy for reality here.

The whole point of that sequence was that in real life, nothing happened between them beyond a very minor flirtation that Kirk felt embarrassed about after the fact. That's why they could "be sure" that the implanted memory of a more intimate interaction was false.

And let's not forget later on -- even when Kirk has supposedly been brainwashed to feel overwhelming love for Helen, he's still able to shake it off with only a slight reminder of his duty, and within a minute he's quite callously sending Helen into a very dangerous maintenance duct full of lethal exposed cables.

First-season Kirk was not the Lothario he's stereotyped as today. Look at "Mudd's Women," where he was the only man other than Spock to be essentially unaffected by the women's enhanced allure. The original idea behind the character, the idea that prevailed through the first season and less so later on, was that he was a totally dedicated military man, someone who placed his duty above all personal concerns. The only times he strayed from that, usually, were times when he was under some kind of mental influence or otherwise not himself.

Damn your excellent memory. You are of course correct. I was just being facetious. And I love your analysis of Kirk sending Noel into danger to get the mission done. Troi, take note!

Still, this still doesn't discount the possibility that he hooked up with Rand after she left the ship. I think her daughter died when she was two. Plenty of time in there... As I say, I don't disagree with your analysis, I just like the possibility.

Context. They regretted depicting the captain of a ship hugging his yeoman on the bridge in the middle of an enemy attack, a context in which a show of affection was obviously inappropriate and implausible. One could quibble about the appropriateness of Uhura's actions in the transporter room in the film, but it's not quite the same situation. And at least she's clearly the instigator there.

I think Uhura's actions were a good deal more inappropriate than Kirk's. She effectively delayed an important mission by a minute for no apparent reason other than she wanted to kiss her bf goodbye because they edited out the part where she tagged them with a modified communications device. I still say that finger rubbing (he is a contact telepath after all) would have been more subtle, less unprofessional, faster, and Kirk could still have noticed in the same way.

This is very much a modern Hollywod phenomena. In 2012 the hero spent ages hugging his wife and children while a woman was slowly drowning in the chamber next door. I prefer the stiff upper lip of the British - a simple longing glance as he goes off to do his duty would have saved 5 minutes of footage and avoided me almost throwing my popcorn at the screen. I'm not opposed to mush but, you know, a woman was dying - priorities guys please!

As Captain April points out, Kirk was holding onto Janice - a crewman with whom he has a close professional relationship - partly to brace for impact. It was almost a subconscious action while his attention was focused on what was happening on screen but also indicated that their relationship might be a bit closer than it should be. It was far more subtle and appropriate than the Uhura scene but it is interesting that the writers felt they went too far.

 

[Christopher]

I think Uhura's actions were a good deal more inappropriate than Kirk's. She effectively delayed an important mission by a minute for no apparent reason other than she wanted to kiss her bf goodbye because they edited out the part where she tagged them with a modified communications device.

As I recall the timing, most of it happened while Kirk was still preparing and getting on the pad. She only "delayed" things for maybe ten seconds beyond that. The rest of the delay was Kirk's own fault for stopping to make conversation about it.

I still say that finger rubbing (he is a contact telepath after all) would have been more subtle, less unprofessional, faster, and Kirk could still have noticed in the same way.

But it wouldn't have been as comprehensible to a general audience unfamiliar with Vulcan courtship. Remember, this film wasn't just made for people who were already fans. It was meant to reintroduce the franchise to a new audience.

As Captain April points out, Kirk was holding onto Janice - a crewman with whom he has a close professional relationship - partly to brace for impact.

That's a hell of a rationalization after the fact, but it clearly wasn't how the scene played out. The plasma torpedo was closing in, Rand was visibly frightened, she moved close to Kirk for comfort, and he put his arm around her and pulled her against him. And as soon as the torpedo hit, he let go of her and they both went flying into the rail, so the "brace for impact" rationalization is completely invalid.

And remember, the show's own writers' bible described it later as an unrealistic interaction between a captain and a yeoman on his bridge. It's not my criticism, it's Gene freaking Roddenberry's criticism.

 

[Pauln6]

As I recall the timing, most of it happened while Kirk was still preparing and getting on the pad. She only "delayed" things for maybe ten seconds beyond that. The rest of the delay was Kirk's own fault for stopping to make conversation about it.

But it wouldn't have been as comprehensible to a general audience unfamiliar with Vulcan courtship. Remember, this film wasn't just made for people who were already fans. It was meant to reintroduce the franchise to a new audience.

Remove the kiss entirely and a longing look, tender touch, and exactly the same dialogue could still have got the message across to both Kirk (if he's played as intelligent) and the audience (who already know about the relationship from the turbolift scene). The key part of the scene is Kirk cottoning on to the relationship. The kiss hammers it home for him but as long as he figures it out, the scene achieves its goal.

Part of me knows that they want to appeal to a wide audience but I don't have to approve of every choice they make to do so. Women love the lengthy speech at the end of Armageddon but I just fast forward it. I'm not totally unromantic and the scene in the turbolift really worked for me. The scene in the transporter just made me cringe. The kiss is superfluous and as on-duty officers it really does make them look unprofessional in my view.

I do agree with the TOS writers' that Kirk and Rand should maintain a professional relationship but I never once thought of that hug as going too far personally. Plus the same TOS writers axed my beloved Rand! I don't have to approve of every decision they made either! Blimey look at how many shows get mileage out of the will-they-wont-they dynamic of the leads these days. It can be a gold mine.

It's like every debate on here. They can't please all of the people all of the time!

 

[Timo]

They didn't know each other before. Spock was science officer before Kirk promoted him to First Officer.

Well, McCoy does a damn good impression of being Kirk's best friend in his first episode already - giving credence to all those novels where the two had met early on (although different novels describe different meetings). The two would simply have been separated by circumstance at some point, just like Kirk and Mitchell apparently were.

We could well argue that McCoy's backstory in STXI is his backstory in TOS: his life wouldn't have been much affected by Nero's antics. The two might thus have met when the previously civilian Dr. McCoy joined Starfleet, in 2255 in both timelines. The background of Spock/Kirk interaction might be different, though - Spock may have given Kirk his no-win scenario test in the TOS timeline, a few years earlier than in the STXI one, or then not. If he didn't, the paths of the two might not cross at first - Spock would be where Pike was, and Kirk and Pike weren't exactly Siamese Twins as per "The Menagerie".

Whether Spock and Kirk had crossed paths before "Where No Man" in the TOS universe is the interesting issue here - the two appear distant in the pilot episode, but not complete strangers to each other's peculiar ways. But the jury is still very much out on whether Spock was the XO or the Science Officer or both in "Where No Man". The pilot episode was the only time he wore Command colors before ST2, FWIW...

That still doesn't explain why [Rand] thinks she is too mature for 17-year old Charlie barely 18 months later.

She'd have to express that sentiment to cling on to her cover story, now wouldn't she? In Enterprise: the First Adventure, Kirk and Uhura okayed her being aboard despite her age issue, but I doubt Starfleet would have agreed - so the matter was probably kept secret from the bureaucrats, and Rand had to be careful with what she said or did.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Pauln6]

That still doesn't explain why [Rand] thinks she is too mature for 17-year old Charlie barely 18 months later.

She'd have to express that sentiment to cling on to her cover story, now wouldn't she? In Enterprise: the First Adventure, Kirk and Uhura okayed her being aboard despite her age issue, but I doubt Starfleet would have agreed - so the matter was probably kept secret from the bureaucrats, and Rand had to be careful with what she said or did.

Timo Saloniemi

But why would she have to lie again? Chekov is younger than she is. And NuChekov is a full ensign at age 17 so he would have been on a cadet cruise at 16 or possibly younger. Wasn't Peter Preston only 15 in TWoK?

Still if she's a bare-faced liar for her whole career that means Kirk CAN potentially still be the father of her child and I can sleep easier at night.

 

[Christopher]

I do agree with the TOS writers' that Kirk and Rand should maintain a professional relationship but I never once thought of that hug as going too far personally.

The point was one of realism. To quote the series bible:

The time is today. We're in Viet Nam waters aboard the navy cruiser U.S.S. Detroit. Suddenly an enemy gunboat heads for us, our guns are unable to stop it, and we realize it's a suicide attack with an atomic warhead. Total destruction of our vessel and all aboard appears probable. Would Captain F.L. Henderson, presently commanding the U.S.S. Detroit, turn and hug a comely female WAVE who happened to be on the ship's bridge?

As simple as that. This is our standard test that has led to STAR TREK believability. (It also suggests much of what has been wrong in filmed science fiction of the past.) No, Captain Henderson wouldn't. Not if he's the kind of captain we hope is commanding any naval vessel of ours. Nor would our Captain Kirk hug a female crewman in a moment of danger, not if he's to remain believable.

Plus the same TOS writers axed my beloved Rand! I don't have to approve of every decision they made either!

That was due to Grace Lee Whitney's personal issues, though. It's not like the producers had much of a choice.

 

[F. King Daniel]

It is nice to know Grace eventually sorted her life out, and I liked her little cameo a few years ago (as a distraction for Charlie again, forty years later!) in the fan film Of Gods and Men.

 

[Timo]

But why would she have to lie again? Chekov is younger than she is.

Because she'd get sanctioned when Starfleet worked out how old she was when starting to collect Starfleet pay, never mind how old she is now. In this personal and perhaps unlikely theory of a non-easygoing space military, that is.

And NuChekov is a full ensign at age 17 so he would have been on a cadet cruise at 16 or possibly younger. Wasn't Peter Preston only 15 in TWoK?

Perhaps, perhaps not; Preston's age was never stated (yeah, I know, Lit forum and all - but the movie was silent on that). But supergeniuses can definitely get in at 15 in the TNG era, as per "Coming of Age", so perhaps nuChekov used that special quota as well?

No, Captain Henderson wouldn't. Not if he's the kind of captain we hope is commanding any naval vessel of ours.

Wasn't the navy anti-gay back then?

I guess this is one of those issues where TOS-taken-as-futurism yields different results from TOS-taken-as-1960s-allegory. From the scifi point of view, it might be more interesting to have skippers who go hugging their loved ones (regardless of marital status or gender) when the last seconds of their lives tick away...

Timo Saloniemi