• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Another Lit Wish List Thread

Thinking about it, I'd like to wish for novels that wrap up the cliffhangers of the Marvel comics Early Voyages and Starfleet Academy lines. Okay, granted, SA wasn't a cliffhanger as much as foreshadowing some new, bigger plot, but its still waiting for someone to pick it up. And Early voyages was cut off in the middle of a storyline.

I know it's unlikely to get a novelized conclusion of comics over a decade old and out of print, but hey, this is a wishlist after all.
 
I'm assuming there was nothing extra about how they would have ended the last arc though? I know alot of people were hoping there would be when they announced it was coming out and it seemed to me like a great incentive to get people to buy it.
 
Do any of the TOS novels take place in the year 4/TAS time period. It seems like you only read of Arex and M-Ress in NF books. I don't think I've ever read or heard of Arex's species anywhere else. Would be nice to.
 
there's a bit with a Triexian Federation Councillor in Articles of the Federation. have you read the NF anthology 'No Limits'? there's an Arex centric story there.
 
I never read Articles of the Federation. The political stories don't interest me much; I usually just get angered that no matter the time or utopia, politicians are the same.

"No Limits" is the only NF material I haven't read. Anthologies have generally disappointe me so usually don't bother with them. Peter David himself told me this one was good and I should read it. i guess I should check ebay.
 
Yeah, it was actually reading AoTF that showed me political stories can be really good.
 
I looked forward to it tremendously, but it seemed like a very poor West Wing pastiche to me - to the point that it recycled an episode plot from that series. The concept deserved much better (and more thought).

An aside - I hope that, going forward, Star Trek novels recognize that, absent major contortions (like holographic windows), the Federation president's office seen on Deep Space Nine and in The Undiscovered Country is near the Trocadero, not at the Place de la Concorde (oddly enough, Diane Duane placed it correctly in Swordhunt). In the Flesh and The Undiscovered Country also strongly suggest that the Federation Council is based in San Francisco; In A Mirror, Darkly established that it was as of 2268. (See this thread.)
 
Last edited:
Do any of the TOS novels take place in the year 4/TAS time period. It seems like you only read of Arex and M-Ress in NF books. I don't think I've ever read or heard of Arex's species anywhere else. Would be nice to.

It's not really universal that TAS is a fourth year; I can't remember who, but I remember seeing here that at least one author considers TAS as having happened across the five year mission, sprinkled among the TOS episodes.
 
Perhaps this simply betrays that I grew up long after TAS aired (and well before it was released on DVD), but I never really thought that TOS itself didn't cover more or less the entire mission. 1277.1 - 5928.5 is nearly 5000 stardate units; why not nearly five years?
 
I never read Articles of the Federation. The political stories don't interest me much; I usually just get angered that no matter the time or utopia, politicians are the same.

I never understand what this means. Politics -- by which, in the case, I take it you mean, the process of governing society -- is not fundamentally different than any other form of human interaction and decision-making. To condemn politics specifically is in essence to condemn human social interaction and decision-making in general.

And I can think of any number of obvious improvements in Federation political culture over modern American political culture, up to and including a President who is publicly willing to admit and apologize for mistakes, a lack of preferential treatment given to the rich, and the absence of a permanent political class.

An aside - I hope that, going forward, Star Trek novels recognize that, absent major contortions (like holographic windows), the Federation president's office seen on Deep Space Nine and in The Undiscovered Country is near the Trocadero, not at the Place de la Concorde (oddly enough, Diane Duane placed it correctly in Swordhunt). In the Flesh and The Undiscovered Country also strongly suggest that the Federation Council is based in San Francisco; In A Mirror, Darkly established that it was as of 2268. (See this thread.)

I think that thread fairly well established that no one gives a shit if a matte painting happened to fit Parisian geography by accident and that the writers are using artistic discretion in deciding where to put the Palais de la Concorde.
 
I never read Articles of the Federation. The political stories don't interest me much; I usually just get angered that no matter the time or utopia, politicians are the same.

I never understand what this means. Politics -- by which, in the case, I take it you mean, the process of governing society -- is not fundamentally different than any other form of human interaction and decision-making. To condemn politics specifically is in essence to condemn human social interaction and decision-making in general.

Politics as expressed in general culture - and in general practice - is unusually craven and banal. It's often full of small evils, which makes for poor drama (drama being better driven by larger shapes of evil and good).

And I can think of any number of obvious improvements in Federation political culture over modern American political culture, up to and including a President who is publicly willing to admit and apologize for mistakes, a lack of preferential treatment given to the rich, and the absence of a permanent political class.
American political culture isn't responsible for the faults of our recent presidents; their characters are. To be forthright, I see little in European (i.e. EU; there is much to admire in Iceland and Norway) political systems that is much better. One of our political parties has become exceedingly dangerous, but our system itself was not structured with business, trade, and micro-culture interests in mind (what I see as the great fault of the European Union, which is an admirable idea at its core).

France and Italy, in particular among western European nations, tend to strike Americans as exceedingly corrupt and sexist whenever we encounter their political and social processes (Berlusconi more or less owns the Italian media, does he not?). Belgium has had no government for 455 days. The entire continent seems to lack freedoms - of speech, of person - that Americans hold essential. (Why those freedoms are lacking, I'm not really sure, given Europe's general liberalism.)

Quantitatively, most of the European Union is a combination of more inequitable and less civically developed than the United States is. Only six of twenty-six members have higher IHDI ratings: Sweden, The Netherlands, Germany, Ireland, Denmark, and Finland (interestingly, all are northern European nations). Even Key members such as France and the United Kingdom are behind the U.S. (the U.K. is roughly twice as far behind the U.S. as the U.S. is behind Sweden).

We have also lost our vitality and purpose much later than Europe, and I think we are far likelier to regain it sooner. (There is a reason that there have been no great European statesmen on the world stage post-World War II, unless one includes cautionary tales such as Blair, Thatcher, and de Gaulle; I suspect that more people know who Madeleine Albright is than remember John Major - and will continue to.)

I think that there is a great deal that America could learn from other countries - but also a great deal that other countries could learn from America if they took us at our word and tried to see us as we see ourselves.

Regarding Federation government, I personally think that a super-NATO model with an invitational legislature (composed of consensus public figures chosen jointly by the members, e.g. T'Pau) makes more sense with what we've seen on screen than does anything else. Sarek, for instance is "the Vulcan Ambassador," not "a vulcan ambassador" or "the Vulcan Councilor," and Captain Pike describes the Federation as "a humanitarian and peacekeeping armada."

Perhaps the Federation really is mostly Starfleet? Most (all?) of the Federation-level efforts we see in Star Trek involve humanitarian, martial/peacekeeping, scientific/exploratory, or inter-member activities (e.g. trade, crime). It's really not clear the the Federation is a state at all; it might be merely a super-state organization that has unified many external functions of its member states into a combined effort.

An aside - I hope that, going forward, Star Trek novels recognize that, absent major contortions (like holographic windows), the Federation president's office seen on Deep Space Nine and in The Undiscovered Country is near the Trocadero, not at the Place de la Concorde (oddly enough, Diane Duane placed it correctly in Swordhunt). In the Flesh and The Undiscovered Country also strongly suggest that the Federation Council is based in San Francisco; In A Mirror, Darkly established that it was as of 2268. (See this thread.)

I think that thread fairly well established that no one gives a shit if a matte painting happened to fit Parisian geography by accident and that the writers are using artistic discretion in deciding where to put the Palais de la Concorde.
I would say that it established that a number of persons who post here are attached to what has been portrayed in the novels. Frankly, it really isn't a big deal, except that the Palais de la Concorde is connected in my mind with Articles of the Federation, which I think was very poorly thought-out, and which I really dislike for a number of reasons (most related to the mistaking of the types of surface detail that typically occupy American political discourse for actual statesmanship, and to the failure to find an operational model related to any era other than the last two-three decades).

(I do maintain, though, that the Place de la Concorde was poorly chosen as a location for the silvery building seen in establishing shots of Paris, which is was meant to be - interior view issues aside. I also think it would be a terrible waste to cover it with a building.)
 
Last edited:
I never read Articles of the Federation. The political stories don't interest me much; I usually just get angered that no matter the time or utopia, politicians are the same.

I never understand what this means. Politics -- by which, in the case, I take it you mean, the process of governing society -- is not fundamentally different than any other form of human interaction and decision-making. To condemn politics specifically is in essence to condemn human social interaction and decision-making in general.

Politics as expressed in general culture - and in general practice - is unusually craven and banal. It's often full of small evils,

Congratulations, you've just described human society in general. Or, rather, one particular view of human society in general.

Politics is also often courageous and principled, full of acts of decency both big and small. I interned for a year in a Member of Congress's office, and I just left recently. I saw the office try to bend over backwards to figure out how to help a single constituent who wrote in because she was losing her job, and our Member voted against a number of very popular bills because of his principled beliefs that those bills were unjust.

There are certainly corrupt politicians, and there are certainly principled politicians. And sometimes corrupt people take principled stands, and sometimes principled people succumb to petty corruptions. Politicians, at the end of the day, are just people, no better as a group but also no worse, than anyone else.

Politics is just humanity, that's all.

And I can think of any number of obvious improvements in Federation political culture over modern American political culture, up to and including a President who is publicly willing to admit and apologize for mistakes, a lack of preferential treatment given to the rich, and the absence of a permanent political class.
American political culture isn't responsible for the faults of our recent presidents;
The intense, unyielding, unforgiving pressure that demands that every leader be perfect and no leader ever admit a mistake? That's a major part of our political culture, sorry.

And so's the presence of an American aristocracy and the favoritism shown to the wealthy elite. There is no Federation Wall Street or City of London, thank goodness.

I think that there is a great deal that America could learn from other countries - but also a great deal that other countries could learn from America if they took us at our word and tried to see us as we see ourselves.
I firmly agree with this. But I also think that we have to reciprocate, that we have to swallow our pride and learn to see things from others' perspectives, too.

Regarding Federation government, I personally think that a super-NATO model with an invitational legislature (composed of consensus public figures chosen jointly by the members, e.g. T'Pau) makes more sense with what we've seen on screen than does anything else. Sarek, for instance is "the Vulcan Ambassador," not "a vulcan ambassador" or "the Vulcan Councilor," and Captain Pike describes the Federation as "a humanitarian and peacekeeping armada."
The problem is that a mere military alliance wouldn't get to declare a state of emergency and put troops on every streetcorner, nor to negotiate peace treaties, nor to grant territorial concessions, nor to do any number of things we've seen the Federation do that mark it as a super-state.

As I argued several years ago, ultimately the confusing evidence stems from the writers having changed their model for the Federation over time, from evolving ideas about what the Federation is behind the scenes.

An aside - I hope that, going forward, Star Trek novels recognize that, absent major contortions (like holographic windows), the Federation president's office seen on Deep Space Nine and in The Undiscovered Country is near the Trocadero, not at the Place de la Concorde (oddly enough, Diane Duane placed it correctly in Swordhunt). In the Flesh and The Undiscovered Country also strongly suggest that the Federation Council is based in San Francisco; In A Mirror, Darkly established that it was as of 2268. (See this thread.)

I think that thread fairly well established that no one gives a shit if a matte painting happened to fit Parisian geography by accident and that the writers are using artistic discretion in deciding where to put the Palais de la Concorde.
I would say that it established that a number of persons who post here are attached to what has been portrayed in the novels.
And that some of the novelists are quite dismissive of the idea that the view on the matte painting should be seen as binding canon for where the Federation President's office is.

Frankly, it really isn't a big deal, except that the Palais de la Concorde is connected in my mind with Articles of the Federation, which I think was very poorly thought-out, and which I really dislike for a number of reasons (most related to the mistaking of the types of surface detail that typically occupy American political discourse for actual statesmanship, and to the failure to find an operational model related to any era other than the last two-three decades).
I strongly disagree with you about Articles of the Federation -- but that's neither here nor there, because the Palais de la Concorde did not originate from Articles. While Keith R.A. DeCandido did develop many of the details of the building and its history, the Palais de la Concorde itself was first established by David Mack in his 2004 novel A Time to Kill.

(I do maintain, though, that the Place de la Concorde was poorly chosen as a location for the silvery building seen in establishing shots of Paris, which is was meant to be
Well, let's ask.

David Mack, why did you chose to put the Palais on the Place de la Concorde? Did you intend for it to be the silvery building seen in DS9's "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost?"

interior view issues aside. I also think it would be a terrible waste to cover it with a building.)
That's fair enough. On the other hand, there's something to be said for the idea that things change over time, even when some people think they shouldn't. Plenty of people objected to placing the National World War II Memorial on the National Mall at the end of the Reflecting Pool, for instance, but it's there now. So I do think that objection, while fair, is also somewhat subjective.
 
Perhaps this simply betrays that I grew up long after TAS aired (and well before it was released on DVD), but I never really thought that TOS itself didn't cover more or less the entire mission. 1277.1 - 5928.5 is nearly 5000 stardate units; why not nearly five years?
I can't buy "The Magicks of Megas Tu" (SD 1277) happening before "Where No Man Has Gone Before" (SD 1312). And not just because one's at the centre of the galaxy and the other at the rim, or even the uniform/set variations. Or even the batshit crazy plot (Kirk beat a witch and a wizard, and even Apollo himself during the series. They're probably from the magic dimension too)

It's that "Magicks" was buisness-as-usual for TOS, while "Where No Man..." has a largely different crew (Garry, Kelso, Boyce, Adler etc)
 
^ If there's no TAS, there's no problem. Having tried watching TAS, I don't think it would really be much of a loss.

I never understand what this means. Politics -- by which, in the case, I take it you mean, the process of governing society -- is not fundamentally different than any other form of human interaction and decision-making. To condemn politics specifically is in essence to condemn human social interaction and decision-making in general.

Politics as expressed in general culture - and in general practice - is unusually craven and banal. It's often full of small evils,

Congratulations, you've just described human society in general. Or, rather, one particular view of human society in general.

Politics is also often courageous and principled, full of acts of decency both big and small. I interned for a year in a Member of Congress's office, and I just left recently. I saw the office try to bend over backwards to figure out how to help a single constituent who wrote in because she was losing her job, and our Member voted against a number of very popular bills because of his principled beliefs that those bills were unjust.

There are certainly corrupt politicians, and there are certainly principled politicians. And sometimes corrupt people take principled stands, and sometimes principled people succumb to petty corruptions. Politicians, at the end of the day, are just people, no better as a group but also no worse, than anyone else.

I've known several excellent U.S. Representatives (and some lower officeholders) who were tremendously dedicated and hard-working. I've known one who was a fundamentally decent person whose heart was entirely in space exploration, but whose support for his party led to him to vote against what otherwise seemed his conscience (he's now a senator). I've even known a reliable republican who sponsors Democratic representatives in his state's unpaid legislature.

But politics, ultimately, is the art of the possible. And the possible - particularly when gained against the dully implacable - seldom provides good drama.

George Patton, not entirely wrongly remarked that "Americans love a winner and will not tolerate a loser. . . . Because the very thought of losing is hateful to Americans." Politics, all to often, results in conditions inferior to victory - sometimes a draw, sometimes defeat. So politics, in its usual form, is not something that Americans would tend to appreciate: either its bureaucratic, or its a pointlessly difficult fight to achieve some small (on a national scale) good.

Politics is just humanity, that's all.
I disagree. I've seen politics conducted by ordinary persons who were drafted into it (e.g. on "disappearing task forces," etc.), and it is a far better process than politics as conducted by politicians. The usual politics is influence set against justice. It can be better, but it usually is not. (Even so, the process of good politics is seldom more riveting than the process of bad politics; the best political stories involve bold action, which isn't the hallmark of a generally staid system.)

The intense, unyielding, unforgiving pressure that demands that every leader be perfect and no leader ever admit a mistake? That's a major part of our political culture, sorry.
I believe that's a part that is easily surmounted. While the political classes require infallibility, the American public admires honesty (so long as honesty appears to come from strength). I don't think that a President's honest report of their successes and failures would be anything but an asset with the public.

And so's the presence of an American aristocracy and the favoritism shown to the wealthy elite. There is no Federation Wall Street or City of London, thank goodness.
That I agree with. I thought you were comparing the U.S. against other nations, not against the Federation's improved situation.

The problem is that a mere military alliance wouldn't get to declare a state of emergency and put troops on every streetcorner, nor to negotiate peace treaties, nor to grant territorial concessions, nor to do any number of things we've seen the Federation do that mark it as a super-state.
I don't think it's a mere military alliance, but a unified defense and humanitarian organization. It would be akin to the NATO powers uniting their militaries, their diplomatic corps, and their humanitarian efforts under a single, independent command structure (so that, say, the Polish Land Forces and the Canadian Army were one and the same, so too the American Department of State and the Turkish Ministry of Foreign Affairs). Such an organization would necessarily have the power to negotiate treaties and make territorial concessions.

A Federation created along these lines would undoubtedly grow more uniform and more state-like over time. Once granted and exercised, power tends to accumulate.

As I argued several years ago, ultimately the confusing evidence stems from the writers having changed their model for the Federation over time, from evolving ideas about what the Federation is behind the scenes.
Your argument there is very well-argued (certainly, the behind-the-scenes idea of the Federation has evolved over time; I think presently to something less than a state), but I don't think that anything you cite substantially conflicts with a super-NATO type model. The Astronomical Committee, Bureau of Agricultural Affairs, Federation Supreme Court, etc. might be assistant or coordinating bodies rather than governing ones - like the IAU, International Fund for Agricultural Development, and International Court of Justice, for instance.

The situation in "Homefront" is expressly a "state of emergency" declared by the Federation President. It's a defense-related emergency, which wouldn't place it at all out of bounds for a primarily defensive and humanitarian organization to declare and then enforce. If Starfleet were responsible for the common defense of generally independent Federation members, it would necessarily have the authority to conduct the defense of any member world at a moment's notice.

I'd never noticed before, but "Doctor Bashir, I Presume" never seems to say that Federation law, rather than United Earth law was violated when Bashir was genetically enhanced. The rationale given is Earth-centric (the dangers of another Khan Singh). Even the line "any genetically enhanced human being is barred from serving in Starfleet or practicing medicine" specifically references humans, rather than Federation citizens. Perhaps the Federation Supreme Court would address an issue of Earth law conflicting with the shared guarantees of the Federation Consitution?

And that some of the novelists are quite dismissive of the idea that the view on the matte painting should be seen as binding canon for where the Federation President's office is.
But their objections appear to stem almost entirely from the extant choice of the Place de la Concorde in Articles and a number of related novels - hence I would include them among persons who are attached to what has been portrayed in the novels. (One of the drawbacks of ongoing continuity, and of Star Trek tie-in writing by longtime, die hard fans. If I never heard mention of TAS or FASA again, I would be tremendously happy.)

I strongly disagree with you about Articles of the Federation -- but that's neither here nor there, because the Palais de la Concorde did not originate from Articles. While Keith R.A. DeCandido did develop many of the details of the building and its history, the Palais de la Concorde itself was first established by David Mack in his 2004 novel A Time to Kill.

(I do maintain, though, that the Place de la Concorde was poorly chosen as a location for the silvery building seen in establishing shots of Paris, which is was meant to be
Well, let's ask.

David Mack, why did you chose to put the Palais on the Place de la Concorde? Did you intend for it to be the silvery building seen in DS9's "Homefront"/"Paradise Lost?"
He did (or KRAD did, for A Time For War, A Time For Peace, and David Mack's book was published first). Whoever chose the Place de la Concorde explained why they chose it in a thread here just after the book was published (since pruned). IIRC, it was selected because it was a conveniently located open space, and the history of the site was an unknown bonus until a reader asked about it.

interior view issues aside. I also think it would be a terrible waste to cover it with a building.)
That's fair enough. On the other hand, there's something to be said for the idea that things change over time, even when some people think they shouldn't. Plenty of people objected to placing the National World War II Memorial on the National Mall at the end of the Reflecting Pool, for instance, but it's there now. So I do think that objection, while fair, is also somewhat subjective.
I never understood that objection. The part of the mall the monument sits on was somewhat blighted before it was constructed. I remember visiting it two years or so before construction began, and being struck by its poor condition - there was essentially nothing there, and what was their reflected poorly on our capital.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top