Angel - (My) First Impressions

[PsychoPere]

WOW. The beautiful design of the new Wolfram & Hart certainly doesn't make it look that way. This just makes it more impressive...that they could do so much with so little shows how prudent and clever the show's production staff could be. Thanks for the info.

Yeah, they did an amazing job. The W&H sets were fantastic. The reduced budget, in fact, was one of the reasons that David Fury, one of the show's writer-producers, was very upset about The WB's decision midway through the season to announce that it would not return a sixth season. You can see a transcript of the magazine article in which he talked about that here. No spoiler concerns in that transcript, either. At the time, it really was a surprise decision.

 

[label]

And while I like Eve as a character, the last time I watched Season 5 I couldn't help thinking how much more interesting it might have been if it was Lilah (whose contract with W&H extends beyond her death) instead of this new random girl that we'd never met before.

I thought the same thing from the moment they introduced Eve through the end. The Season would have been so much better with Lilah and the complications she would have brought to Wesley.

Eve ended up being fine for what she was, but Lilah would have gotten the show off on the right foot and probably made an already very good season into a better one.

 

[RoJoHen]

Indeed. Season 5 feels so detached from the rest of the show because of all the big changes. Having Lilah around would have at least made it feel a little less like a reboot.

 

[saturn5]

Indeed. Season 5 feels so detached from the rest of the show because of all the big changes. Having Lilah around would have at least made it feel a little less like a reboot.

SPOILERS

Yeah, I loved Lilah, evil bitch though she was, so close to being redeemed Faith style but so far. The scene where Wes has his imaginary conversation with her corpse before decapitating it is my favourite scene in all of Angel.

"No, I'm not a vampire, MY WESLEY SAW TO THAT"
"But it means something that you tried"

 

[IndyJones]

I...am enjoying Gunn's reinvention as a suit-wearing custom-made whiz of a lawyer (he looks so much cooler in suits than his old street clothes).

Interesting that you think that, as I think I've only ever seen J August Richards play a lawyer since Angel ended.

And while I like Eve as a character, the last time I watched Season 5 I couldn't help thinking how much more interesting it might have been if it was Lilah (whose contract with W&H extends beyond her death) instead of this new random girl that we'd never met before.

I didn't think of it at the time, but I really like that idea.

Spoiler: this season

though that certainly would give Eve's relationship with "Doyle" some interesting connotations.

 

[Too Much Fun]

Having now seen the first eight episodes of season 5, I agree that it doesn't really pick up until "Lineage" and "Destiny". The episodes preceding it had some good parts as it was fun to see the characters adjusting to their new surroundings/resources, abilities, and setting, but these two were the first ones not hampered by a weak standalone plot. They advanced the characters and overall series arc nicely.

"Lineage" was great for exploring Wesley's character more deeply (although it was really depressing how sad things were for him at the end ) and I felt "Destiny" was the first episode of the series to use Spike really well in a way that makes his inclusion in the show feel necessary and potentially intriguing, instead of just forced and irritating.

For the most part, I usually mentally tune out during fight scenes on TV shows as I tend to find them superfluous and tedious (on "Buffy: The Vampire Slayer" and "Xena: Warrior Princess", especially), but the brawl between Angel and Spike was one of the few that really grabbed my attention early on and kept me riveted for its entire duration. I loved how brutal and bloody it was, with a lot of engrossingly cutting dialog between Angel and Spike along the way. Spike was actually eloquent and intimidating for the first time in awhile after a few episode of mostly just being annoying 'comic relief'.

I understand why some of you might have liked Lilah being in season 5 instead of Eve, but I wouldn't trade Eve for anyone. I loved the Lilah character in all the previous seasons and was sad when she left, but Eve brings something to the show that I find equally enjoyable, albeit in a different way. It's hard to explain, but to me there's something just irresistible about this character and actress. Her body language and line delivery are almost non-stop sex appeal, with the exception of in her more (supposedly) vulnerable, worried scenes like when Gunn started strangling her.

Speaking of 'most [something] in Whedon shows', I think she's the sexiest character he's ever written. Yes, it would have been nice to still have Lilah around, but smokin' hot Eve is a hell of a consolation prize after Lilah's loss. Her sexuality/sex drive goes way beyond Lilah's too. She not only does Angel (and feels even less conflicted about it than Lilah did about Wesley), but she does Lindsey too! As wild as Lilah was, I don't think she was ever quite ruthless and sexy enough for him (she did seem to try), and that's another reason why Eve rules.

Of course, I'm delighted to see the hottest female character on the show revealed as consorting with who I consider the coolest male villain on the show. I can't wait to see what the two of them get up to. I would call it a match made in heaven, but considering the people involved, it would probably be more appropriate to call it a 'match made in hell'. Whatever it is, it's perfect, and I never saw it coming.

A few fond observations related to Spike:

- I love that he was listening to the great Dead Kennedys song "Too Drunk To Fuck" while driving in "Destiny". I foolishly got excited that we'd actually get to hear the chorus with the song's title in it, but of course Angel called his cell phone before we had a chance.

- One of Spike's funniest lines ever was in that brilliantly hilarious scene where Wes gets annoyed at people trying to "comfort" him by confessing to killing their parents - "Don't know if you know this, but, uh, I killed my mum. Actually, I'd already killed her, and then she tried to shag me, so I had to, uh..."

 

[DS9Continuing]

As regards the "Lilah in season 5" thing, my opinion is OH HELL NO.

And as the whitest person you'll ever meet, I don't say that lightly.

I have no particular allegiance to Eve, but there is no way Lilah could have performed her role in the stories of season five. For one, it was too much baggage from previous seasons, which was contrary to everything they were trying to do at the beginning of season 5. Second, there is no way in hell Lilah would have been sexually involved with Lindsey. They both loathed and respected each other - they were contemporaries and rivals. She was far too strong a woman to ever betray everything she had worked for for the sake of "love." Lilah never changed her allegiances no matter how deep she got in with Wesley. Eve threw over everything because of what seemed to me to be a juvenile crush based on absolutely nothing.

 

[RoJoHen]

Second, there is no way in hell Lilah would have been sexually involved with Lindsey. They both loathed and respected each other - they were contemporaries and rivals. She was far too strong a woman to ever betray everything she had worked for for the sake of "love."

Well, obviously, certain storylines would have to be changed up a bit for Lilah to make sense. Lilah and Lindsey had their own distinct relationship which would have been fun to see in the setting of Season 5. I could definitely see them rekindling their professional relationship in an attempt to take down Angel.

 

[saturn5]

I'm not sure I'd have wanted Lilah in the Eve role in season 5 but I would have liked a little more closure for the character, we don't even get to see her and Wes have their final goodbye

 

[Too Much Fun]

Two points I wanted to make that I forgot to bring up last time:

1) I really like the way the show has handled the relationship between Fred and Wesley, at least on an objective level. I feel that on TV and in film, too often when there's a male and female character who are friends and the guy develops romantic feelings for the girl, the solution is too pat.

She inevitably gets won over and returns his feelings. Sometimes that works, because it's done convincingly, but I appreciate the more realistic scenario on this show, where Fred is moved by Wesley's love and concern for her, but no matter what, she just can't reciprocate, and she always ends up inadvertently crushing him by going off (and getting off) with someone else right under his nose. I say I like this 'objectively', because on a more selfish, subjective level, it bothers me because it just makes me feel so sorry for poor Wesley.

After how hard he's worked and how noble he's been, I'd really like to see him be happy in a relationship with someone. That's part of what made the Lilah thing so tragic in the end. It may have started off as just a sick, wrong, shallow arrangement between them, but it seemed to be growing into something more healthy before she was killed off.

2) Another thing I appreciate the writers doing (in relation to both "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and "Angel") is gently poking fun at themselves and their shows' histories by jokingly referring to events that were originally treated with the utmost seriousness. It's a nice continuity nod for fans and demonstrates that they don't take themselves and their shows too seriously (it gets annoying when people do that sometimes).

One example was Angel's reference to the "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" Faith arc when he makes a complaint in season 1 that goes something like, "I was making real progress getting through to her until this English guy showed up..." and (the bit that inspired me making this point now), Spike's funny line about his mother trying to "shag" him. As far I can recall, the original situation with his mom was supposed to be horrifying on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", but in "Lineage" it just sets up a good punchline.

 

[RoJoHen]

1) I really like the way the show has handled the relationship between Fred and Wesley, at least on an objective level. I feel that on TV and in film, too often when there's a male and female character who are friends and the guy develops romantic feelings for the girl, the solution is too pat.

She inevitably gets won over and returns his feelings. Sometimes that works, because it's done convincingly, but I appreciate the more realistic scenario on this show, where Fred is moved by Wesley's love and concern for her, but no matter what, she just can't reciprocate, and she always ends up inadvertently crushing him by going off (and getting off) with someone else right under his nose. I say I like this 'objectively', because on a more selfish, subjective level, it bothers me because it just makes me feel so sorry for poor Wesley.

After how hard he's worked and how noble he's been, I'd really like to see him be happy in a relationship with someone. That's part of what made the Lilah thing so tragic in the end. It may have started off as just a sick, wrong, shallow arrangement between them, but it seemed to be growing into something more healthy before she was killed off.

There is much more to come.

2) Another thing I appreciate the writers doing (in relation to both "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and "Angel") is gently poking fun at themselves and their shows' histories by jokingly referring to events that were originally treated with the utmost seriousness. It's a nice continuity nod for fans and demonstrates that they don't take themselves and their shows too seriously (it gets annoying when people do that sometimes).

One example was Angel's reference to the "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" Faith arc when he makes a complaint in season 1 that goes something like, "I was making real progress getting through to her until this English guy showed up..." and (the bit that inspired me making this point now), Spike's funny line about his mother trying to "shag" him. As far I can recall, the original situation with his mom was supposed to be horrifying on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", but in "Lineage" it just sets up a good punchline.

They do this some more later on. One of my favorite scenes is from an upcoming episode called "The Girl in Question," where Angel and Spike argue about the number of apocalypses they've prevented.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Oh, you're so close to the episode "You're Welcome". Oh, you poor thing you. :-(

 

[RoJoHen]

Oh, you're so close to the episode "You're Welcome". Oh, you poor thing you. :-(

It's such a fantastic episode, but he's probably going to hate it.

 

[label]

Second, there is no way in hell Lilah would have been sexually involved with Lindsey. They both loathed and respected each other - they were contemporaries and rivals. She was far too strong a woman to ever betray everything she had worked for for the sake of "love."

Well, obviously, certain storylines would have to be changed up a bit for Lilah to make sense. Lilah and Lindsey had their own distinct relationship which would have been fun to see in the setting of Season 5. I could definitely see them rekindling their professional relationship in an attempt to take down Angel.

Exactly, when I say I'd rather have Lilah than Eve in Season 5, it's certainly not a simple swap with the same storyline in tact. I would have hated her and Lindsey together the way Eve and Lindsey are. I could have seen them teaming up to take Angel down - except - Lilah is more reticent about the whole deal because she's torn between her obligations to W&H post-mortem and her feelings towards Wesley.

Obviously there's no love lost between Lilah and Angel but for me personally, it would have made the season so much better considering that

Spoiler: Spoilers for 2nd half of Season 5

Wesley could have still gotten together with Fred but Lilah being around would have complicated things that much more.

 

[RoJoHen]

Second, there is no way in hell Lilah would have been sexually involved with Lindsey. They both loathed and respected each other - they were contemporaries and rivals. She was far too strong a woman to ever betray everything she had worked for for the sake of "love."

Well, obviously, certain storylines would have to be changed up a bit for Lilah to make sense. Lilah and Lindsey had their own distinct relationship which would have been fun to see in the setting of Season 5. I could definitely see them rekindling their professional relationship in an attempt to take down Angel.

Exactly, when I say I'd rather have Lilah than Eve in Season 5, it's certainly not a simple swap with the same storyline in tact. I would have hated her and Lindsey together the way Eve and Lindsey are. I could have seen them teaming up to take Angel down - except - Lilah is more reticent about the whole deal because she's torn between her obligations to W&H post-mortem and her feelings towards Wesley.

Obviously there's no love lost between Lilah and Angel but for me personally, it would have made the season so much better considering that

Spoiler: Spoilers for 2nd half of Season 5

Wesley could have still gotten together with Fred but Lilah being around would have complicated things that much more.

I agree. Hell, you could even have Lilah AND Eve if you still need Lindsey to have a love interest. Maybe Eve could have been Lilah's trainee or something.

 

[Too Much Fun]

Just watched "Harm's Way", "Soul Purpose", and "Damage". I can't remember the last time I saw three straight episodes of this series that I had no major problems with, enjoying them all throughly from start to finish. It feels like season 5 is really starting to pick up now.

It was nice to get a whole episode about Harmony and I like the perspective it took showing how the more prominent cast members look from her point of view. It reminded me of TNG's "Lower Decks", although obviously not as poignant. Still, it was uplifting to see Harmony somewhat redeemed by the end.

When did she learn to fight? I didn't think being a vampire made her automatically a better fighter like others, because I remember she was already a vampire when she had that hilariously pathetic slap fight with Xander. Speaking of episodes reminding me of other episodes, "Soul Purpose" reminded me of "Restless". I'm not calling it a rip-off, though. Angel's hallucinations were quite original and a lot of fun to watch. Especially Fred pulling things out of his chest cavity.

Spike was a real revelation in "Damage". I was so surprised by how thoughtful and deep his words were at the end. I've always found Spike a fairly shallow character, even in the later seasons of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" when the writers seemed to be trying really hard to make him seem deeper, but I never bought it until now. At last he feels like he really fits on a show again and has a well-written and plausible purpose and outlook. I am now happily on board the Spike train again, for the first time since season season 4 of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer".

Also, YAY! ANDREW WELLS SHOWED UP! I cheered when I saw him. So happy to see him again, endearingly overconfident as always, yet surprisingly articulate, levelheaded, and respectable at the end. My only gripes about him were that his hair was too long (I feel like an airhead just typing that, but I gotta be honest) and his "Lord of the Rings" references were a bit grating. Neither of those quibbles are a big deal, though. Overall, he was delightful as always. He was one of the few highlights of the later seasons of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" for me, and I'm so glad no one spoiled the surprise of him appearing on "Angel" for me.

Next up is "You're Welcome", which some of you seem to think I won't like. Make up your mind, Rojo. First you said you thought I'll like the rest of the season, and now you say you expect me to hate that one, despite it being 'fantastic'. Methinks you are a fickle fellow.

 

[RoJoHen]

Next up is "You're Welcome", which some of you seem to think I won't like. Make up your mind, Rojo. First you said you thought I'll like the rest of the season, and now you say you expect me to hate that one, despite it being 'fantastic'. Methinks you are a fickle fellow.

No, I just know what this episode is about.

Perhaps you'll like it. I hope you do. But I have a feeling you won't like it for the same reasons I do.

 

[DS9Continuing]

It was nice to get a whole episode about Harmony and I like the perspective it took showing how the more prominent cast members look from her point of view. It reminded me of TNG's "Lower Decks", although obviously not as poignant. Still, it was uplifting to see Harmony somewhat redeemed by the end.

When did she learn to fight? I didn't think being a vampire made her automatically a better fighter like others, because I remember she was already a vampire when she had that hilariously pathetic slap fight with Xander.

She specifically told Xander "no more hair pulling" in "Real Me," in Buffy s5. She showed improved fighting skills then, although still obviously nothing to match a Slayer.

I really enjoy "Harm's Way" and usually giggle through most of it. It does a great job of "humanising" her, if you know what I mean. She's both pathetic and sympathetic at the same time. I particularly enjoy the repeated knocking people out and throwing them in the closet, and the ridiculous chopstick fight.

I see it as the successor to early Buffy's metaphors - what are office politics like when the office is Evil Incorporated? If people will gossip and backstab to get the better position in a normal office, what will they do at W&H?

"The filthy man whore is a novice in your language and makes foolish errors. We make fun of him, yes?"


.

 

[Too Much Fun]

Yeah, now that you mention it, even moreso than "Lower Decks", I think "In Harm's Way" reminds me of early "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" episodes like "The Zeppo" that focus on one character where things just keep getting more and more out of hand in very funny ways. By the end, the character finally has some sort of triumph, but even that is comical, not quite a heroic moment that impresses everyone around. That running gag with the closet was classic Whedon humour.

 

[saturn5]

Harm's Way is just a funny, standalone ep in a season with some very heavy eps and a lot of character death, I think it's irresistable