Angel - (My) First Impressions

[tharpdevenport]

I recall reading the Jasmine plot was, before Carpenter got pregnant and threw a monkey wrench into the show, going to be a season long plot, like Voyager's "Year of Hell" was originally going to be.

 

[Thestral]

So I was right, after airing "Not Fade Away" this morning, TNT followed it up by restarting the cycle and showed the Pilot ("City of" right?).

Was really, really interesting to see the beginning and the end of the show back to back like that.

Spoiler: Not Fade Away

I missed much of the back half of Season 5, so this was my first full episode with Illyria. As much as I adored Fred and was prepared to hate Illyria a lot, I actually really liked her and found her strangely endering despite being some sort of Demon Princess thing with a fetish for violence. Her lie to Wesley there at the end was also a lot more touching than I was expecting since I knew about it going in. I liked everybody's "last day" - and this might sound strange, but since Boreanaz on Bones is part of what got me to come back and pick up Angel, it was fun to see him have a last day being a father. Also, Connor was far, far, farfarfar less annoying than before; what happened? I might have missed this, but why did Gunn stop wearing the lawyer clothes? I assume it was in an episode I missed? Poor Lorne. Making him be the one to shoot Lindsay was a nasty piece of work. Speaking of Lindsay, I did want to mention that because of the episodes I'd missed and seen, I was genuinely unaware of who Spike's fake-Watcher-dude was until revealed to the characters. 'Twas fun. I was surprised by how much I felt "poor Eve" too. That last scene for me did a really effective job summing up what I feel the show to be about, and even though another season or two would've been deserved, there's something fitting about ending it there.

Now, when I compare that to the Pilot, what surprised me was not the tonal difference, nor obviously the difference in characters or the fact that Boreanaz looks much younger (although I've now come to the conclusion that the Twilight movie directors based pale boy's hair style on this), but the connections it has with the finale. I mean... Wolfram and Hart, there from the very beginning, with the difference being later on,

Spoiler: Season 5

Angel might well be the guy having to cover for Predator McDouchebag

. And... is that Lindsay McDonald?

I actually really, really like Cordelia, even in her "pre-grown-up" phase. Despite her ditziness, there's a freshness and a life that she brings, a spunk you might say, that

Spoiler: S5

Harmony

in Season 5 definitely did not. Doyle's also really cool. The amount of time they devoted to Lisa and then cruelly offed her after destroying her confidence in the one guy she could actually trust reminded me who's show this is, of course.

 

[RoJoHen]

I get that it was supposed to be Cordelia possessed by something evil as opposed to simply Cordelia itself, but the fact remains that the same person playing Cordelia was playing the role and that means no matter what they say, the way one feels about the actress and the character is going to affect the way they feel about this 'Big Bad'. Also, there was all this murky talk about "is this Cordelia or isn't it?" and this question is never really clearly answered, as Skip insists that it is Cordelia and the others refuse to believe him.

My point is that this becomes a lot clearer when you watch it again. I didn't like Season 4 much the first time I saw it because it make a whole lot of sense, but when I saw it again, I was able to see how all the pieces truly fit together.

I'm starting to think that your issues aren't actually with the character of Cordelia, but with the actress Charisma Carpenter.

 

[RoJoHen]

And... is that Lindsay McDonald?

Yes, it is. Why the weird face?

 

[Thestral]

And... is that Lindsay McDonald?

Yes, it is. Why the weird face?

I didn't recognize him until he spoke. He's so... straight-laced. And was a a bit surprised to see him in the Pilot.

Spoiler: S5

That makes him and Angel the only characters to be in the Pilot and the finale, right?

 

[RoJoHen]

And... is that Lindsay McDonald?

Yes, it is. Why the weird face?

I didn't recognize him until he spoke. He's so... straight-laced. And was a a bit surprised to see him in the Pilot.

He was just a lawyer at this point. He doesn't become a badass until Angel beats him up a few times.

Spoiler: S5

That makes him and Angel the only characters to be in the Pilot and the finale, right?

I believe so, yes.

 

[PsychoPere]

[...] the Pilot ("City of" right?).

Correct.

For (in-depth) answers to your spoiler tagged questions:

Spoiler: Season 4 & 5

1.) In the season 4 finale, "Home," Angel "gave up" Connor so that Connor would have a chance at a normal life. Connor had essentially gone insane following the loss of Jasmine, had taken Cordelia and many innocents hostage, and was threatening to kill them all with a bomb. To defuse the situation, and give Connor some peace, Angel used a mystical knife to "kill" Connor and erase all memory of him from the minds of the Fang Gang - except Angel himself. There is a point in season 5 where Connor's superhuman abilities were discovered, and his "foster" parents brought him to W&H for answers. Due to some related events, Wesley discovered Angel's memory tampering and destroyed a storage artifact, thereby restoring everyone's true memories. His time and memories away from Angel, however, kept Connor a more centered person.

2.) In exchange for keeping his mystically-endowed lawyer knowledge, Gunn made a "devil's bargain" to get an ancient artifact released from U.S. Customs and delivered to the man responsible for his "upgrades." Once opened, that artifact resulted in Fred's death and transformation into Illyria. After he realized that he was responsible, Gunn gave himself up to allow Lindsay's escape from a hell dimension. Illyria retrieved Gunn when no one else could, but of course he still renounced the knowledge gained at such a tragic price.

3) (Re: Angel & Lindsay, pilot & finale) Yep.

 

[saturn5]

Lot of people didn't like the Jasmine arc, not overly fond of it myself but Faith hunting Angelus is my favourite Angel storylone EVER

As for Lindsey

 

[Lapis Exilis]

I'm not too thrilled with this season after the first four episodes, but it hasn't yet become as horrible as my friend said it would be. Like I said, I think the whole Cordelia arc has been weak so far. I also thought the Angel being dumped in the ocean bit was crap too. Teenage Connor is very frustrating to watch. He's so easily manipulated by lies and he feels really shoehorned into the show. I'm getting impatient waiting for his inclusion in the show to really seem necessary. I feel like he should have either stayed a baby or stayed gone after Holtz took him.

Connor is my major problem with Season 4 - he's never an actual character, just a plot device, doing whatever stupid thing is required of him next to move the plot along in these rather bizarre ways to up Angel's angst to rather ridiciulous levels. The fact that the actor is lousy doesn't help either. But, really, the way he's written is ludicrous.

The season hasn't been all bad, though. The relationship between Lilah and Wesley is one ongoing thing that I approve of. I think it's meant to be sort of like the Buffy and Spike thing in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" season six as a character gets involved in an unhealthy relationship while they're going through a dark, self-destructive period in their life, but unlike that other case, I actually like this one and think it makes sense.

But you're right, here's where season 4 shines very darkly. Wesley and Lilah are brilliant together - scary, sexy, poignant. You can tell that she doesn't mean to, but falls for him like a ton a of bricks, while he, badsass as he's trying to be, simply isn't the sort of man who can be intimate with someone and not care about them - and this is largely down to the actors who give powerful, subtle performances.

- Jasmine: One of the absolute worst characters I've ever seen on any Whedon show. I've only seen her first episode, but if she continues the way she has, she will dethrone Glory as my most despised Whedon character very soon. It's nice to see a "Firefly" cast member again, but wow, what a waste of one.

Yep, Jasmine bites, but again I think this has more to do with her being a plot device for a plot device - she exists and is written solely so that Connor can do more stupid stuff. And Connor does stupid stuff just to beat the dead horse of Angel's torturedness. The whole thing reminds me of a fan fic that goes on too long and that is too in love with character pain as a substitute for real drama.

I recently tried to rewatch the entire series but barely got through season 4, which seemed infinitely more tedious than it had the first time. It left such a bad taste in my mouth that I gave up on the whole thing a couple of episodes into season 5. I might have a go at that season on its own though.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I'm starting to think that your issues aren't actually with the character of Cordelia, but with the actress Charisma Carpenter.

Maybe, maybe not. It's hard to say. I've never much cared for the character of Cordelia, even on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", but I've never seen Charisma Carpenter in any other movies or TV shows. I don't know if it's impossible for me to enjoy her work in any role, or if my aversion to her acting is only limited to her in this role.

Season 4 is finally behind me and huzzah, there is some light at the end of the tunnel! I absolutely love the twist of Angel Investigations getting control of Wolfram & Hart's facilities and resources! . Season 4 was a rough ride, but I see a lot of potential in this new setting and am excited to see what they do with it.

I hated how all the Jasmine stuff went down. Unfortunately, unlike some people here, I didn't think there was enough substance in her big philosophical debate with Angel to justify the character's arc and existence. The story line of her brainwashing all of L.A. into worshiping her en route to trying to do the same to the rest of the world was completely ill-conceived and idiotic in my eyes. It was by far the silliest and most unsatisfying storyline I've seen on this show.

I liked most of the season finale, though. It was lovely to see Lilah again, even if only a ghost (or manifestation of a messenger or whatever). The only thing dragging down an otherwise good finale was Connor going all terrorist and whining incessantly (for what felt like the millionth time) about how everyone has been lying to him. I agree that he and Jasmine were just bad plot devices. I'm so glad they're gone.

In Connor's big whiny speech to Angel, when I guess I was supposed to feel sad for he and Angel, I just kept wishing the writers would hurry up and get rid of him (I had a feeling they would be getting rid of him, I just wasn't sure how). I half expected him to either commit suicide or be killed by Angel. The actual way he was written off seemed a little preposterous, but whatever, it seems to effectively remove him from the show, and that's all that matters. I say good riddance. As far as I'm concerned, the Connor/Jasmine/Cordelia/The Beast arc was the show's biggest failure/fiasco/misstep and I just want the show to put all that behind it, move on, and never mention any of it again.

With all this stuff out of the way, I foresee a much more pleasant viewing experience for season 5. Thank you to everyone who has participated in this thread and kept the viewing experience interesting for me through the more frustrating episodes. You've all made season 4 a lot more bearable with your thoughtful reflections on it, whether you agreed with me or not.

 

[label]

As much as I loved Season 4 I will say there were a few things I totally agreed with you about.

I did hate Conner and how angry and whiny he was for much of the season.
I did hate the Conner/Angel/Cordy triangle
Initially I thought the Jasmine stuff was a real let down, but I'm a bit more forgiving now than I was.

Mostly I chalk the above up to Charisma getting pregnant in real life and the writers having to scramble to try and make a storyline make sense that wasn't what they had intended to do so I tend to be pretty forgiving about some of the more painful aspects of Season 4 and appreciate what we got.

As for Season 5, it's just my opinion but Season 5 pretty much sucked until Lineage which was an awesome episode. Before that, it's pretty weak.

 

[PsychoPere]

As for Season 5, it's just my opinion but Season 5 pretty much sucked until Lineage which was an awesome episode. Before that, it's pretty weak.

I'm with you. I thought "Conviction" was an okay opening episode; "Just Rewards" was only worth it for the "buddy cop" situation; "Unleashed" was crap; I actually quite liked "Hell Bound," as I recall; then "Life of the Party" and "The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco" both sucked horribly. "Lineage" really set the season back onto a path of quality.

 

[RoJoHen]

I enjoy the beginning of Season 5 for what it is, but you need to be prepared for the return of standalone storytelling. Some of them are decent (I quite enjoy the first two episodes of the season), and some of them aren't so great, but the season definitely becomes awesome in the second half.

 

[label]

but the season definitely becomes awesome in the second half.

Ironically enough, the second half becomes so awesome about the time they abandon their stand-alone silliness and move back into a Season 3/4 serial story telling. And, yeah, the second half of Season 5 with the exception of a couple episodes is very very good.

Especially the :

Spoiler: Second half of Season 5

Illyria/Fred stuff.

 

[I am not Spock]

The beginning of season 5 was a shocking change, yeah, and it was a hard transition to get used to initially. It pretty much was a total reboot of the show. It was a big shock going back to standalone eps, at least for the first part of the season.

By the time Lineage and Destiny came around, the season kicked into high gear. Season 5 became an excellent season in my opinion. In fact, one of my favourite of the show.

Seasons 5, 3, and 4 are probably about tied for me.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I'm three episodes into season five. So far, I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, I love the new setting, the character development, and new characters. Clearly the producers got a bigger budget and found a wonderful way to take advantage of it with the re-design and expansion of Wolfram & Hart. I love the way Harmony was brought back (so obvious, yet unexpected and perfect) and am enjoying Gunn's reinvention as a suit-wearing custom-made whiz of a lawyer (he looks so much cooler in suits than his old street clothes).

I'm liking the other new characters too. Eve especially. I was really surprised and delighted by how sexy she was in her first appearance. This is by far some of the funniest, sexiest dialog Whedon has ever written:

Eve: "[Connor is] happy and well-adjusted now that he has no memory of you. And the rest of the world, including your best friends, [whispers] never even heard of Connor."
Angel: [angry] "That's not a name I want passing through your lips."
Eve: [smiling] "And what *would* you like passing through my lips?"

My GOD, that was hot. Especially with her facial expression and voice when she said it. I loved it so much, I submitted it to IMDB's "memorable quotes".

On the other hand, some things have bothered me, so I can see some possible reasons why people aren't that fond of season 5's beginnings. While the new character stuff (with one exception, which I'll get to in a moment) and setting are great fun, I'm not digging the standalone stories so far. A sleaze bag planting a bomb in his son and werewolf cannibalism are two of the stupider ideas for stories this show has had (although I do like the werewolf chick).

The only new character I don't like right now is Spike. I liked him in seasons 2-4 of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", but on "Angel" he is annoying as hell so far! Why does he have to say "bloody" every ten seconds? I get it! He's British! I don't think he ever said it that much on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer". The running gag of him starting to enjoy being a ghost who can taunt Angel endlessly was funny at first, but got old and grating quick. It didn't take long before I was right there with Angel when he was relieved every time Spike vanished mid speech.

I hope Spike finds a more interesting arc and direction because I didn't like him much in his first appearances on the series. There were a few inspired moments like his hilarious "Captain Forehead" line and Harmony's equally funny "Blondie Bear?" reaction, but most of the time he just drove me nuts with his irritating remarks from the sidelines.

His presence feels very forced right now, just as it did in the later seasons of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", when I felt he was around long after all his potential as a character had been exhausted and he should have been killed off way earlier. Despite the elements that aren't working for me, overall I'm already enjoying this season much, much more than most of season 4 and am more excited than ever about what's next. Quite a welcome relief after how miserable it was to watch season 4 until Lilah's appearance at the end restored my hopes that this series could achieve greatness again.

 

[PsychoPere]

Clearly the producers got a bigger budget [...]

Season five actually had a significant budget cut, back down to season one levels.

I hope Spike finds a more interesting arc and direction [...]

By the end of the season, I actually thought Spike had a much more interesting arc (in this season specifically) than Angel did, although I also wished (and still do to this day) that the road he walked had been a bit different. But that's something I can talk more about when you get there.

 

[RoJoHen]

Spike definitely becomes better as the season progresses.

And while I like Eve as a character, the last time I watched Season 5 I couldn't help thinking how much more interesting it might have been if it was Lilah (whose contract with W&H extends beyond her death) instead of this new random girl that we'd never met before.

 

[Too Much Fun]

Clearly the producers got a bigger budget [...]

Season five actually had a significant budget cut, back down to season one levels.

WOW. The beautiful design of the new Wolfram & Hart certainly doesn't make it look that way. This just makes it more impressive...that they could do so much with so little shows how prudent and clever the show's production staff could be. Thanks for the info.

 

[RoJoHen]

One thing I can say is that, based on what you've said about earlier seasons, you should really enjoy Season 5 once it gets going.