Angel - (My) First Impressions

[Too Much Fun]

True, it's just a little jarring when he goes into his immature mode because on his series, I'm used to seeing him act admirably restrained. I feel the same way when he reverts to Angelus. I know, it totally makes sense, but it still annoys me when he starts acting like the one of the most smarmy douchebag 20somethings you can imagine. GAH, I just want to strangle the cocky jackass!

 

[Too Much Fun]

I do not like where this show is going....

*SPOILERS GALORE*:

My favourite characters are getting written off and the story lines have been taking some dark, ugly, bleak turns that all just lead to big disappointment. I wasn't fond of Connor disappearing and then coming back as a wild savage teenager bent on revenge against Angel after being raised by Holtz to hate him (ripped off from the superior "The Mask of Zorro"). I will never buy Angel and Cordelia having feelings for each other and the mystic transcendence stuff with her new powers bores me. I guess it's supposed to make her sympathetic and noble, but I just don't care. It's not a story I'm interested in.

Groosalugg, who I was liking more and more with every episode, suddenly gives up Cordelia out of jealousy over Angel and leaves. I figured he would since he couldn't become a regular cast member, but I still didn't like it. I like him and Cordelia together better than the idea of her and Angel, which looks forced to me. I was liking Holtz more with every appearance too...I thought maybe he and his army could have been season long enemies. The build-up to a showdown between he and his soldiers and Angel was exciting and I was just as shocked and heartbroken as Angel (in a good way) after his portal jump. His return was less satisfying. I felt he was gone far too soon. Lorne is my favourite character since Lindsey to leave. I checked Wikipedia about Groo and learned that he won't be back, but at least I know those two will be back...I just hope I don't have to wait too long for their returns.

The one development I approve of is Wesley's transformation. It really is amazing how much he has changed from the bumbling twit he started off as, but unlike Cordelia's character arc, I find his convincing and plausible. He has become so grim, disturbed, and isolated, he reminds me of Batman. I could have never guessed Wesley might turn out this way. I am very curious to see what happens next with him, more than any of the other characters. The only Wesley-related thing I wasn't so happy about was Angel threatening to kill him in the hospital. That seemed too ridiculous to me. Especially Angel calling him by his last name.

I checked in with my friend who lent me the series. He says he hates season 4 and warns me that it will be a chore to get through, but also promises that season 5 is awesome and justifies all that difficulty and ties back to previous seasons nicely (very appealing to a continuity nerd like me). Based on discussions here, I get the idea that season 4 is controversial and many would agree with my friend that season 5 is excellent and one of the best seasons (if not the best season) of the series. What say you, forum Whedonites? Is there anyone here that likes season 4 and can alleviate some of my dread as I'm about to start it?

 

[RoJoHen]

Based on your reviews thus far, you will hate Season 4.

I, however, think Season 4 is fantastic. The big problem with it, though, is that it doesn't really make sense until after you've seen it. Characters will do things that you will not like. They will do things that piss you off. They will do things that make you go

It all makes sense. There are reasons for everything, and the whole season is significantly more subtle than it lets on. After re-watching the show, Season 4 became my favorite season of all because I knew where it was going, and I got to see how they laid it all out. The first time through, though, it can be really confusing and frustrating.

 

[PsychoPere]

I quite liked season four. It does feel very different from the previous seasons, and one character's arc is inexplicable until late in the season, which was very confusing waiting week by week to get to some revelations. To be honest, it's also a little disappointing in the end, but I've long since come to both understand and accept it, particularly since there was an episode in season five that sort of ties up the loose ends to that character's arc. I thought season four overall was even more relentless than some of the events of past seasons, and it all moves at a very quick pace but over a relatively short period of time, so in a sense it felt like 24. I fully agree with everything RoJoHen said above me, including the fact that, based on what you've stated so far, you will hate season four. What will confuse you initially, however, will ultimately make sense.

Season five, on the other hand, I was not all that pleased with during its first half. There were some things that I enjoyed, including the big paradigm change for Angel and the Fang Gang, but I thought on an episode-to-episode basis that the show was having difficulty finding its feet with the big changes in circumstance. Episode four, "Hell Bound," however, remains one of my favorite Angel episodes, and episode eight, "Destiny," contains what I think is the most brutal fight in all of the Buffyverse. The finale, "Not Fade Away," is one of my favorite series finales of all time, right up there with Babylon 5's "Sleeping in Light," The Wire's "-30-" and The Shield's "Family Meeting."

 

[label]

I loved Season 4 also. Nice dark, serial story-telling that keeps upping the ante at every turn. The final arc of Season 4 takes an unexpected turn, but real life events with one or more of the actors forced them to rethink their arc for that season and I think they did the best they could with what they had.

It's my favorite season of Angel and even though I recognize that it's not "perfect" if you start looking to closely at the storyline, if you just relax and enjoy the season for it's own merits. As for Season 5 of Angel, I'll be blunt: The first first 6-7 episodes of Season 5 were huge steps backwards and blew chunks. It isn't until Lineage that the show recovers from the changes and then the show ends up being pretty good from there onwards.

 

[saturn5]

I loved Season 4 also. Nice dark, serial story-telling that keeps upping the ante at every turn. The final arc of Season 4 takes an unexpected turn, but real life events with one or more of the actors forced them to rethink their arc for that season and I think they did the best they could with what they had.

It's my favorite season of Angel and even though I recognize that it's not "perfect" if you start looking to closely at the storyline, if you just relax and enjoy the season for it's own merits. As for Season 5 of Angel, I'll be blunt: The first first 6-7 episodes of Season 5 were huge steps backwards and blew chunks. It isn't until Lineage that the show recovers from the changes and then the show ends up being pretty good from there onwards.

Angel never jumped the you-know-what, every season was good although I thought 3&4 were the best. That said, some story arcs were certainly better then others

 

[tharpdevenport]

As I recall reading (I think Whedonesque posters), there was some problems wioth either the the actress playing Cordy wanting to leave, or getting pregnant unexpectedly, and they had to shake some things up at the last minute writing wise, and ruined Whedon's original plans.

 

[PsychoPere]

^ If I recall correctly, it was a bit of both.

Spoiler: Cordelia & season 4 arc

Charisma Carpenter was pregnant, which had to be worked into the story somehow, but there were also rumors that she was having problems with Joss Whedon, ultimately leading to her departure from the series.

(Edited to add in response to below: Good call, label. When I posted, I didn't even stop to remember that I was in a first watch thread. I hope I haven't inadvertently spoiled Too Much Fun.)

 

[label]

While that's true, we may want to spoiler tag the last couple of posts as not to ruin potential plot points for certain first time watchers...........

 

[Too Much Fun]

Are you guys talking about Cordelia being stuck in that stupid, vague sky dimension? Are you saying it's because of Charisma Carpenter being pregnant? That makes me feel a little better about the season, actually. I think her arc has been really lame so far (I just saw the episode where she comes back with amnesia), but if the reason is unforeseen 'real life' circumstances, I can sympathize with the writers and not be so angry about it.

I'm not too thrilled with this season after the first four episodes, but it hasn't yet become as horrible as my friend said it would be. Like I said, I think the whole Cordelia arc has been weak so far. I also thought the Angel being dumped in the ocean bit was crap too. Teenage Connor is very frustrating to watch. He's so easily manipulated by lies and he feels really shoehorned into the show. I'm getting impatient waiting for his inclusion in the show to really seem necessary. I feel like he should have either stayed a baby or stayed gone after Holtz took him.

The season hasn't been all bad, though. The relationship between Lilah and Wesley is one ongoing thing that I approve of. I think it's meant to be sort of like the Buffy and Spike thing in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" season six as a character gets involved in an unhealthy relationship while they're going through a dark, self-destructive period in their life, but unlike that other case, I actually like this one and think it makes sense.

There's a definite appeal to the way the two of them simultaneously appreciate and insult/deceive each other, but ultimately I feel very sad for Wesley, and hope the character ends up in a happier, healthier state eventually. For now, this is intriguing to watch, but I wouldn't want to see him just keep getting worse. I've always liked Lilah and seeing her evil role expanded is nice. I really dug her Lucy-Liu-in-"Kill Bill, Vol. 1" moment with the decapitation. With most of the season 4 episodes I've seen, I like parts, but not the whole...except the one with Lorne in Las Vegas. For once, I like a standalone episode more than the arc-heavy ones before and after it. The best part was Angel's running gag about all the famous people he's met.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Happier state? Wait until he breaks up with Delilah (or has that come already for you?), and a member of his "family" visits...

And then...

 

[saturn5]

Are you guys talking about Cordelia being stuck in that stupid, vague sky dimension? Are you saying it's because of Charisma Carpenter being pregnant? That makes me feel a little better about the season, actually. I think her arc has been really lame so far (I just saw the episode where she comes back with amnesia), but if the reason is unforeseen 'real life' circumstances, I can sympathize with the writers and not be so angry about it.

I'm not too thrilled with this season after the first four episodes, but it hasn't yet become as horrible as my friend said it would be. Like I said, I think the whole Cordelia arc has been weak so far. I also thought the Angel being dumped in the ocean bit was crap too. Teenage Connor is very frustrating to watch. He's so easily manipulated by lies and he feels really shoehorned into the show. I'm getting impatient waiting for his inclusion in the show to really seem necessary. I feel like he should have either stayed a baby or stayed gone after Holtz took him.

The season hasn't been all bad, though. The relationship between Lilah and Wesley is one ongoing thing that I approve of. I think it's meant to be sort of like the Buffy and Spike thing in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" season six as a character gets involved in an unhealthy relationship while they're going through a dark, self-destructive period in their life, but unlike that other case, I actually like this one and think it makes sense.

There's a definite appeal to the way the two of them simultaneously appreciate and insult/deceive each other, but ultimately I feel very sad for Wesley, and hope the character ends up in a happier, healthier state eventually. For now, this is intriguing to watch, but I wouldn't want to see him just keep getting worse. I've always liked Lilah and seeing her evil role expanded is nice. I really dug her Lucy-Liu-in-"Kill Bill, Vol. 1" moment with the decapitation. With most of the season 4 episodes I've seen, I like parts, but not the whole...except the one with Lorne in Las Vegas. For once, I like a standalone episode more than the arc-heavy ones before and after it. The best part was Angel's running gag about all the famous people he's met.

Yeah, Wes and Lilah relationship and how it ends are possibly my favourite scenes in all of Angel. As for CC and Joss well, she comes back for season 5 and applies for the role of WW when Joss was toying with the film so they must be ok.
But hang on, the 3 season arc we come across mid-season is the best Angel storyline you'll ever see

 

[Skellington]

I also thought the Angel being dumped in the ocean bit was crap too.

I thought that it was a missed opportunity and that it should have had stronger psychological consequences.

Teenage Connor is very frustrating to watch. He's so easily manipulated by lies and he feels really shoehorned into the show. I'm getting impatient waiting for his inclusion in the show to really seem necessary. I feel like he should have either stayed a baby or stayed gone after Holtz took him

I think that with the whole Angel-Darla-baby storyline the writers kept writing themselves into a corner. In my opinion this was the flipside of one of tthe show's greatest features - its ability to "go there" in terms of narrative and throw away the status quo. Basically, they told some great and daring stories and did things that, once done, prevented them from going home again (so to speak).
Connor just made the show more convoluted, though, and it really didn't need that. Stories involving children with a Destiny tend to be detrimental to franchises in which they're told, in my opinion, as are stories where they disappear into a portal and come out as teenagers soon after. (Marvel essentially did that with the X-Men and Fantastic Four franchises, and (if I recall) ended up reversing it both times.)

 

[Too Much Fun]

So I've been watching as many season 4 episodes a day as I can, but while I did this during the first three seasons because I loved them and was anxious to see what was next, this time I'm just trying to get the pain over with quickly.

If I hadn't heard so many positive things about season 5 from people here and my friend who lent me the Angel DVDs, I would think this show has definitely 'jumped the shark'. It's just been one disappointing revelation after another in this season's arc.

A laundry list of complaints:

- 'The Beast': A terrible, one-note villain, and nothing he did or said really impressed me.

- Cordelia and Connor having sex and her being impregnated as a result: This is the worst storyline I have ever witnessed in any Whedonverse program, and I've seen them all. I thought Spike and Buffy was sick and wrong and stupid, but this is ten times worse.

I don't care if there's no blood relation between them, as far as I'm concerned, it was incest. For her to go from changing his diapers while he's a baby to having sex with him as a teenager is appalling, I don't care what her excuses were (world ending, pity for him because he's never been close to anyone and is alone, blah blah blah), whatever, it's still incestuous.

- Cordelia becoming the big bad: So ridiculous. I've always had trouble taking the character seriously and buying the show's attempts to legitimize her as a more well-rounded character. I felt some progress was being made in previous seasons, but now this character has been completely assassinated.

Watching Cordelia act all evil behind the gang's back and manipulating Connor, I just stare at the screen in disgusted disbelief and think to myself over and over again: "This is so pathetic, this is so stupid". If they were trying to punish Charisma Carpenter for getting pregnant by completely ruining her character, they did a great job.

- Jasmine: One of the absolute worst characters I've ever seen on any Whedon show. I've only seen her first episode, but if she continues the way she has, she will dethrone Glory as my most despised Whedon character very soon. It's nice to see a "Firefly" cast member again, but wow, what a waste of one.

- They killed off Lilah : She was one of my favourite characters and played off the other characters and influenced events more interestingly than others in the cast. I'd much rather see Cordelia or Connor killed off.

- The love triangle/breakup between Fred, Gunn, and Wesley: Felt very forced, fake, and unnecessary. As Gunn said, it was a soap opera. And a bad one.

- "Spin the Bottle": After all the character development of the previous seasons, it reduced the main cast to the one-dimensional stereotypes they were earlier in the show, or in the case of Fred, a one-dimensional stereotype we should assume she was before we met her.

I was not amused by Angel as an immature, prejudiced Irish thug, Wesley as a wussy British pansy, Cordelia as a bimbo high school cheerleader, Gunn as an impulsive 'jive-talking' street hood, and Fred as a clueless pothead.

A shorter list of things I'm liking:

- Gwen: One good thing to come out of the Gunn and Fred break-up was Gunn's very entertaining heist with Gwen. I wish it wasn't just a subplot, because all the main plot season arc-related junk was vastly inferior to it. I liked seeing Gunn get some action from Gwen.

Gwen is one of the coolest new recurring characters, and one of the few new season 4 elements that I enjoy. I like her powers and sassy attitude. She's no Lilah, but her being around ensures that there's at least one good female character outside of the 'core group'. I hope she'll show up again.

- The Angelus turn: I thought it made things a little more interesting at least for a little while. Although I've always found Boreanaz a little annoying as Angelus because he tends to go hammy and over-the-top, I appreciated Angelus behaviour and dialogue in the midst of so much dull, monotonous stuff going on.

Angelus brought some much needed energy to the proceedings with his supremely asshole-ish verbal mind games turning everyone against each other and using his knowledge of each group member's personal issues/mistakes against them while he was in the cage.

Only four more episodes to go in season 4. I can't wait to get this dismal failure of a season over with and move on to the supposedly greener pastures of season 5.

My friend has suggested that maybe part of the reason the show got cancelled is because people were so turned off by season 4, they abandoned the show in droves before season 5. I could totally see that happening. GRRR, TMF no like season 4! This season no fun!

 

[label]

Couple things.....

+ predications were accurate, you obviously aren't enjoying season 4 much. Back when it aired I think the split - from my definitely-could-be-flawed-memory - was that about 60-75% of the people really loved season 4 and it's dark serial story-telling a lot and the rest hated it. (I personally loved it and found it to be the best season of Angel overall)

+ Keep in mind, they had to totally rework the whole Season 4 arc because of a real life pregnancy and there wasn't supposed to be any Connor/Cordelia/baby storyline which is the part of the story that most people had major issues with (myself included).

+ When I first watched it, the Jasmine part of the arc definitely seemed anti-climactic, but in retrospect, I actually enjoyed the more philosophical/less "Big Bad" to beat up angle they tried.

+ Keep in mind, you haven't actually seen the real Cordelia since she ascended in Season 3 finale. What you got this season was Jasmine inhabiting Cordelia's body, trying to pass as Cordy until she was ready to come into the world.

+ The beast being a "one-note' villain was the point for him. He was supposed to be just some big non-thinking brute who was a tool of Jasmine to set the stage for her arrival. He was never supposed to be anything more than that.

+ I too loved the Angelus/Faith arc even if David does get a bit hammy with him at times. I also liked Gwen as well, though I thought they could have done more with her than they did.

+ If memory serves, the ratings did not drop significantly for season 4 and ratings were fine for Season 5 as well. That's why it was such a huge shock when the show got cancelled.

+ I loved the Spin the Bottle episode personally. I viewed it as Angel's version of Tabula Rasa - nothing more - and still die every time those swords come out of Wesley's sleeves.........lol

+ Also, I hated when they killed off Lilah as well. I loved her character by the time she got to season 4 and loved her with Wesley. Wish they could have kept that going.

 

[PsychoPere]

+ When I first watched it, the Jasmine part of the arc definitely seemed anti-climactic, but in retrospect, I actually enjoyed the more philosophical/less "Big Bad" to beat up angle they tried.

The questions that were raised by the Jasmine arc - "is the cost asked of us worth world peace?" in particular - were a large reason as to why I loved season four at the end. I think the argument between Angel and Jasmine near the end of "Peace Out" involves some of the most powerful questions that Buffy and Angel ever tackled, especially with the closing few seconds of that episode.

 

[RoJoHen]

+ Keep in mind, you haven't actually seen the real Cordelia since she ascended in Season 3 finale. What you got this season was Jasmine inhabiting Cordelia's body, trying to pass as Cordy until she was ready to come into the world.

This is the key to enjoying Season 4 for me, and again, it's something you don't really understand until you watch the season for a second time.

Cordelia, for all intents and purposes, is not in Season 4. Charisma Carpenter is playing Jasmine, who spends the entire season masquerading as Cordelia. The real Cordelia is nowhere to be found.

The Conner/Cordelia romance sucks! It's SUPPOSED to suck! None of us are supposed to watch it and think it's okay. That's the point. Something is clearly wrong with this situation.

 

[Skellington]

Angelus was a bit anti-climactic for me. There was lots of build-up and very little dramatic pay-off. Can't really think of anything truly nasty that he did; he dusts a vampire or two, fails to kill Faith and helpfully disposes of the Beast. He should be Hannibal Lector with fangs and a sunny disposition. As it turns out, if I recall, he got the blame for a massacre actually performed by Cordelia/Jasmine.

I thought that the Beast worked well - Good makeup & prosthetics, and an excuse for some great fantasy action sequences, not to mention blotting out the sun!

Season four seems like an interesting, though only partially successful, experiment; in part a consequence of the storytelling choices of the first three seasons, in part a season-long narrative such as 24. I never thought that Boreanaz was wise in comparing Angel to that show, though, as 24 was an exception to the rule that heavily continuity-based stories are mainly for existing fans.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I get that it was supposed to be Cordelia possessed by something evil as opposed to simply Cordelia itself, but the fact remains that the same person playing Cordelia was playing the role and that means no matter what they say, the way one feels about the actress and the character is going to affect the way they feel about this 'Big Bad'. Also, there was all this murky talk about "is this Cordelia or isn't it?" and this question is never really clearly answered, as Skip insists that it is Cordelia and the others refuse to believe him.

Bottom line, Charisma Carpenter playing an evil meddler (possessed or not) was just laughable to me. I've never liked it when shows go the route of having a main cast member play a possessed evil person. I wasn't crazy about Sarah Michelle Gellar playing 'The First Evil' either. I prefer it when they bring in another actor, or as was the case with Angelus, have the same actor playing a twisted version of their original character.

I don't like being constantly negative here, so I want to mention something I really enjoyed in season 4 that I forgot to mention in my previous post - Lilah dressing up as Fred for Wesley's benefit. At first, Wesley acts like he finds her gesture just crude and pathetic, but then as she's going to drop the whole act and take off her red Fred-like glasses as they're about to have sex, he says "leave them on". Funniest moment of season 4 so far, and one of the funniest moments of the series as a whole.

Despite how screwed up and wrong their relationship is, I think moments like that showed that there was some real affection and care between them. I like how it started off as just a self-destructive lark for Wesley where the two of them were happy to just use each other and exchange put downs, but by the time Lilah was killed off (again, woe is me ), Wesley was actually genuinely sad about her death.

 

[Forbin]

Yeah, this is the season that lost me. I never recovered from the disgust.