Angel - (My) First Impressions

[PsychoPere]

You may want to prepare yourself: most of the rest of Season 2 veers off into an unexpected direction [...] It's not all bad --we do get introduced to Fred, after all-- but it really felt somewhat out of place, especially on first viewing.

This part of the season that Daneel refers to, Too Much Fun, was to keep Angel and the "Fang Gang" in a position where there was no chance of offering help to Buffy and company as Buffy season 5's Glory arc headed towards "The Gift."

As soon as he came back for Season 6, the show noticably iomproved.

Season 6... of Angel? The show didn't have a sixth season; it ended with season 5.

 

[tharpdevenport]

Of, you're right -- looks like I am disagreeing with everybody then -- Season 5 was better. And yes, there was a Season 6 -- it was the excellent Whedon writen/plott comic series, "After the Fall".

 

[saturn5]

I liked season 5, it was all new but it worked for me. Not that keen on season 6, I find it confusing

 

[Too Much Fun]

Just started season 3. Really liking Fred so far, but wow, what a weird way to introduce her. Could never have predicted that. The whole arc with going into Lorne's dimension felt a bit too 'Xena' for me (and the 'cow' thing was annoying as hell). I love "Xena: Warrior Princess", but its tone doesn't really mix well with "Angel" and those episodes felt a little off sometimes with such a jarring shift in tone and setting, but the episodes had their moments.

I especially enjoyed Angel's joy at being able to walk in the sun and being celebrated as a hero. Sometimes I get tired of his constant brooding and lack of smiling, but now I realize part of the advantage of that is it makes the rare occasions when he smiles and acts gleeful more special and entertaining. I felt just like Cordelia when she told him he should smile more. His awkward attempts to make small talk, be friendly, and try too hard to be helpful are becoming a rather stale gag, though.

I think the best thing about the episodes in Lorne's dimension is the character development they made possible for Cordelia. The princess thing was just a joke at first, but it seems she learned some important lessons from the experience, and it left her a more empathetic and generous person. She and the warrior guy were delightful together too. I kind of wished she could stay with him. And how cute was it that she called him "Groo"? . Sounds like a Dr. Seuss character.

I was really impressed by Cordelia's pep talk with Angel about Buffy in the season 3 premiere. It was the moment I've been waiting for when she finally seemed to grow beyond her immature, shallow, deeply self-centered persona. I think all of the characters are growing up, becoming wittier, braver, and more heroic, and that's great to see. Gunn is getting better too, though he still busts out some cheesy dialog once in awhile. That's not so bad, actually. I even like some of it. For example- "[Xenophobes?] Why are they afraid of Xena? I think she's kind of fly".

The episode with Lindsey getting a new hand and exposing his love and talent for singing and playing folk music on the guitar was quite an odd character deviation. His private moments in that episode were downright melancholy. What a strange show, giving so much sympathy and depth to a character that started out simply as a standard oily villain. This show keeps doing stuff that makes me like Lindsey even more, then having something happen that suggests he's not going to be around anymore (i.e. the massacre, him resigning from Wolfram & Hart and leaving town). That's a drag. I hope he's not gone too long.

 

[I am not Spock]

That scene in the elevator between Angel and Holland Manners, which Too Much Fun didn't like, was probably my favourite scene of the entire series. It summed up the premise of the show brilliantly. There will always be evil in the world, and it's impossible to win against it. All that matters is that there will be someone willing to keep fighting anyway, and keep pushing the evil back. That's Angel in a nutshell. As is the line in the episode after that from Angel to Kate. 'If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. The smallest act of kindness is the most beautiful thing in the world' Great quote!

 

[saturn5]

A lot of people didn't like the Jasmine arc, I'm not that fond of it but worth it for Angel/Connor singing 'Oh Jasmine'. I also like the Pylea arc and a big fan of the Groo.

As for Angel and Darla's 'hate sex' about as close to rape as you'll ever see a heroic character perform on TV, as Darla later comments 'You threw me on the bed and took what you wanted'

Season 5 worked for me, it was a reboot but it was a successful one, especially with the Spike/Angel relationship

 

[RoJoHen]

Just started season 3.

Yay! Get ready for a hell of a ride!

 

[Too Much Fun]

That scene in the elevator between Angel and Holland Manners, which Too Much Fun didn't like, was probably my favourite scene of the entire series. It summed up the premise of the show brilliantly. There will always be evil in the world, and it's impossible to win against it. All that matters is that there will be someone willing to keep fighting anyway, and keep pushing the evil back. That's Angel in a nutshell. As is the line in the episode after that from Angel to Kate. 'If nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. The smallest act of kindness is the most beautiful thing in the world' Great quote!

Oh, but you've misinterpreted me, sir. It's not that I didn't like the scene, it's that I found the payoff weak. I really liked Holland's dialog and the way both actors played the scene. The writing there was very eloquent and fascinating.

I just didn't like how after all the build-up to them going to some mystical world (including a shot of the elevator going further and further down into fiery surroundings), we were denied that visual for the very obvious payoff of L.A. being the most corrupt place. I wanted to see Whedon and crew's visual rendering of a real fire & brimstone traditional hell dimension, dammit! I know they already sort of did that on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", but I think seeing another one would have been neat.

 

[RoJoHen]

They could have done that, but then they wouldn't been making the point that they were trying to make.

And it's not the LA is the most corrupt place. LA just happens to be the setting of the show. The corruption and evil lies within us all.

And what, Pylea wasn't hellish enough for you?

 

[Too Much Fun]

I'm about halfway into season 3 and not digging it as much as the first two. The standalone episodes seem especially silly in this season (zombie cops? Angel switching bodies with a horny old man? A guy who turns people into sexist woman beaters by touching them?). This is some pretty lame stuff. They sometimes lead to occasional fun moments (i.e. Possessed Angel making out with Lilah, then freaking her out by inadvertently biting her, which she thinks is just him playing mind games ), but mostly feel like a waste of time.

I feel like the arcs haven't been as consistent this season either. I didn't really like what the show did with Darla after her 'comeback' with Druscilla. The two of them were fascinating together, but once she got pregnant, I started to find her boring. In the episode where all of the sympathy was supposed to be for her, I felt more bad for Lorne having his place blown up twice.

Fortunately, Darla's talk with Angel on the rooftop and her conversation with him in the alley at the end of "Lullaby" were some of the best stuff she's ever done, and redeemed her pregnancy arc. I just wasn't very into it until that climax. I am curious to see where things go with Angel, the baby, and Holtz, but much of the set up for that situation was a chore to sit through.

I'm also not very engaged by Cordelia's struggles with her visions. I don't really understand why she insists on keeping her visions. I know it's supposed to make us find her heroic, but I think she should have just accepted Groo's offer to take them from her through intercourse. It reminds me of Angel's choice in "I Will Remember You". A character has an opportunity to have a much happier life (in many ways, the life they've always wanted) and instead they insist on suffering, in order maintain this self-sacrificing tragic hero status. I know Angel explained why he didn't want to become human again, but part of me wishes he'd just stayed the way he was and left the work to Buffy. It felt sort of like an excuse just so he could still have his own show.

I feel like the show is really trying to force Cordelia into a hero role - another example is her starting to train with Angel so she can fight. Angel seemingly having a crush on her strikes me as belabored too, again, despite the show's many obvious attempts to try to make it feel natural. I can buy Wesley's evolution into a tougher, stronger, more mature character, but I still find Cordelia's unconvincing. She's certainly become much more sympathetic with all the pain she's been put through, but I have trouble not finding her heroism far-fetched.

Maybe I'll just never be able to because she was so far from being a hero in the first place. Wesley always had potential to be a hero, he just used to be more clumsy and out-of-touch. Cordelia started off as a selfish, vain, valley girl stereotype and it feels more like circumstances have forced her to be more humble and less selfish, instead of like she's reached potential she always had, like Wesley.

Another thing I'm getting frustrated with is the constant use of irony in the show. How many episodes start with someone saying something that leads you to believe they're talking to a certain person/dealing with a certain situation, only for the camera to cut back to reveal that they're talking to someone/doing something you couldn't have predicted? It was cute at first, but it's starting to become really tired and stale.

On a more positive note, I'm enjoying the character of Fred a lot. My more objective, cynical side keeps reminding me that she's a rather unoriginal and somewhat cliche character - impossibly cute and sweet innocent-looking mousy/nerdy/brainy girl who is always making big puppy eyes and speaking in an adorably nervous motor-mouthed manner. She's very much in the mold of Ezri Dax, and Whedon's own Willow and Kaylee.

I know all that, but I'm charmed by her anyways. I guess I'm just a sucker for that kind of character. . I think another reason I like her so much is because Amy Acker plays the role so well. I always get a kick out of Fred's cute, awkward lines, although the joke of her using too many words can be irritating at times.

My favourite episode of the season so far is "Fredless". My only nitpick with that episode is I didn't like the misdirection with Fred's parents. We kept being lead to believe they were evil (including a bit where her father says, "Not yet" to her mother - a line that never pays off) and this ends up being another one of those 'screw with audience expectations' cons. Other than that, however, I thought "Fredless" was just about perfect. I hope the rest of the season has more episodes like that, and fewer episodes with wacky monsters and/or forced Cordelia heroism.

 

[RoJoHen]

I think you are determined to dislike Cordelia. She made a sacrifice because, even though her life would have been better without them, the world, and more importantly Angel, would suffer. Same with Angel. Angel can't just accept the prize of being human again. It's too easy. He knows all the evil that he did as Angelus, and he feels the need to try to make up for it (even though he knows he never will). They are the very definition of heroic.

I kind of forgot about the random standalones in the beginning of Season 3, now that you mention them. I've watched the show so many times that I've trained myself to skip over anything that I don't find super awesome.

That said, Darla's pregnancy arc in Season 3 was one of my favorites of the show, but not until she actually arrives in LA from her worldly travels. I loved the way the child's soul was affecting her, and I was on the edge of my seat while she was in labor. My mouth was hanging open when she sacrificed herself to save the baby.

Now that the baby is around, though, it's gonna get awesome.

 

[label]

Now that the baby is around, though, it's gonna get awesome.

For me, Season 3 was pivotal, not so much because I thought the Season itself was amazing (though I really liked Season 3 myself) but because of what it sets up for the end of Season 3 and all of Season 4.

 

[PsychoPere]

As RoJoHen said, Angel would suffer without Cordelia maintaining the visions. Those visions are his link to the Powers, their way of ensuring that he knows what needs to be tackled at any given time. Groo may have been generous in offering to take the visions on himself, but I highly doubt Groo would have stayed at Angel's side forever, the way Cordy would. Without those visions in a person Angel can trust implicitly, he would be out there fighting blind. His chances at redemption would suffer, and more importantly many people who would need his help would likely never receive it.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

My favourite episode of the season so far is "Fredless". My only nitpick with that episode is I didn't like the misdirection with Fred's parents. We kept being lead to believe they were evil (including a bit where her father says, "Not yet" to her mother - a line that never pays off) and this ends up being another one of those 'screw with audience expectations' cons. Other than that, however, I thought "Fredless" was just about perfect. I hope the rest of the season has more episodes like that, and fewer episodes with wacky monsters and/or forced Cordelia heroism.

Your reactions sound a lot like mine, especially when I went back and tried to watch the show a second time - except that I really like Cordelia and found Fred a lot less charming. I think that may be an actress thing - a lot of people give Cordelia and/or Fred because they think the actresses are engaging and/or hot. Whedon has a certain schtick and it largely revolves around playing with audience expectations - though once you become familiar enough with his stuff, your expectation becomes to anticipate the messing-with thing so it kinda stops working.

I'll be very interested to hear your opinion of season 4 - as you can see, opinion on that bit of the story tends to be split. It's actually a surprise to me to hear people praising it. I certainly agree though that the end of season three is the show's high point.

 

[Thestral]

I'll be very interested to hear your opinion of season 4 - as you can see, opinion on that bit of the story tends to be split. It's actually a surprise to me to hear people praising it. I certainly agree though that the end of season three is the show's high point.

I've been catching reruns of Angel on TBS (they show two episodes every weekday morning) and the first episode I watched was "Spin the Bottle;" I never watched the show in first-run (nor Buffy), so these last couple weeks have been my introduction to actually-watching the show instead of reading about it or catching the very occasional episode. I've probably caught about a third of Season 4 now and the reruns are almost halfway through Season 5.

I'm hoping the rerun cycle begins again; I found the serialization and most characters in Season 4 (Wes, Gunn, Fred) to be great, and Angel himself of course, but didn't care for Cordelia much - she seemed very strange, though understandably so, and

Spoiler: Connor

Connor is a total twit and I was glad to have him off the show.

Spoiler: Season 4

In fairness, I missed rather big chunks of both the Beast storyline and the Jasmine storyline (I saw Episodes 6, 7, 12, 13, 16, 17, 20, and half of 21), but didn't like the lack of a real Cordelia and the Connor/Cordy thing was just... weirdly creepy, especially since it seems like Angel and real-Cordelia had a thing.

Spoiler: Cordelia in S4

So looking through Wiki am I right in thinking I've yet to see the real Cordelia except in "You're Welcome" (which aired this morning) and snippets from the random episode I caught in the late 90s/early Noughts?

 

[PsychoPere]

^ In answer to the question in your last spoiler tag, yes, you are correct.

 

[saturn5]

I'll be very interested to hear your opinion of season 4 - as you can see, opinion on that bit of the story tends to be split. It's actually a surprise to me to hear people praising it. I certainly agree though that the end of season three is the show's high point.

I've been catching reruns of Angel on TBS (they show two episodes every weekday morning) and the first episode I watched was "Spin the Bottle;" I never watched the show in first-run (nor Buffy), so these last couple weeks have been my introduction to actually-watching the show instead of reading about it or catching the very occasional episode. I've probably caught about a third of Season 4 now and the reruns are almost halfway through Season 5.

I'm hoping the rerun cycle begins again; I found the serialization and most characters in Season 4 (Wes, Gunn, Fred) to be great, and Angel himself of course, but didn't care for Cordelia much - she seemed very strange, though understandably so, and

Spoiler: Connor

Connor is a total twit and I was glad to have him off the show.

Spoiler: Season 4

In fairness, I missed rather big chunks of both the Beast storyline and the Jasmine storyline (I saw Episodes 6, 7, 12, 13, 16, 17, 20, and half of 21), but didn't like the lack of a real Cordelia and the Connor/Cordy thing was just... weirdly creepy, especially since it seems like Angel and real-Cordelia had a thing.

Spoiler: Cordelia in S4

So looking through Wiki am I right in thinking I've yet to see the real Cordelia except in "You're Welcome" (which aired this morning) and snippets from the random episode I caught in the late 90s/early Noughts?

I envy you, I wish I could watch Buffy and Angel again virgin fresh

 

[Thestral]

^ In answer to the question in your last spoiler tag, yes, you are correct.

Well that's... disappointing. As a comment on that season really, though I suppose it works as a "gotcha." I certainly felt "gotcha'd" when

Spoiler: Cordelia

Cordy stabbed Lilah, then showed up for Beasty make-out session

ETA:

I envy you, I wish I could watch Buffy and Angel again virgin fresh

Spoiler: Season 5 Spoilers

I'm kind of disposed against Buffy and co. right now, actually, after the events of "Damage." I mean, I know this is near the tail end of the filmed-Buffyverse, the vast majority of which I haven't seen, and there were reasons for the Scoobies unlocking all the Potentials, but yeesh, that whole last scene left me cold towards them.

 

[Too Much Fun]

Oh man, you people with your spoilers are driving me crazy. It's probably going to be awhile before I can actually read them! So heading into the last half of season three, there seem to be a lot of love triangles going around. Fred and Gunn have got together, and Groo left his dimension to be with Cordelia in Los Angeles. I have mixed feelings about these.

On the one hand, I don't mind the couples themselves. In fact, I really like Groo and Cordelia together. You could almost call me a 'shipper' for them...from the first time Groo showed up, I wanted he and Cordelia to stay together indefinitely (happily ever after, if you will). What I don't like is that instead of just having couples, the show has to have jealousy and love triangles.

It's nice seeing Fred and Cordelia happy with their partners...until we have to watch Wesley and Angel suffering because of it. It's weird to watch a show knowing I'm rooting for the guy I'm not supposed to be rooting for. I guess I'm supposed to think Groo is a corny dork and root for Cordelia to pick Angel over him, but while I feel sorry for Angel, I think Groo is a much better fit for Cordelia and I really like his personality. He is obviously very naive and clueless, but I like his sweet, uncontrollably chivalrous and honest manner.

Angel's jealousy of Cordelia being so attracted to Groo created some funny moments, but after awhile I get sick of watching someone as old and mature as Angel acting like a jealous teenager, and his pain over Cordelia's lack of interest was a drag on Groo and Cordelia's happiness together, which was otherwise nice to watch (same goes for Wesley's feelings bringing down the pleasure of watching Gunn and Fred's 'honeymoon phase' bliss).

I liked the idea of Angel getting more worried about money (it's a funny irony after the first season where Cordelia practically had to beg him to ask clients for money), but the episode where they're all out solving different cases for money was disappointing because all the cases were too silly. I liked the concept of the episode, but not the execution.

I absolutely HATED the ballet episode. I hate this conceit of 'instead of the characters working out their emotional issues normally, their issues are confronted through them being possessed'. It reminds me of that "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" episode where Buffy and Angel are possessed by a teacher and student, causing them to kiss and be all romantic with each other in the middle of Angelus's reign of terror. It was a good acting showcase for both of the actors (and apparently what inspired Whedon to make an Angel spin-off), but I thought the concept was lame then, and is just as lame the second time. The only thing I liked about the episode was that Summer Glau was in it, because I always enjoy seeing Whedon regulars from his other shows.

So yeah, this love triangle stuff is getting on my nerves. Fortunately, at the same time there's some cool stuff going on. I love the presence of the baby on the show and the intrigue that the mystery of his ultimate purpose brings (I agree with RoJoHen, the baby elevates the whole show). I am anxious to see how the mystery pays off. I'm hoping for more of that (and Holtz) and less Angel and Wesley crushing on Cordelia and Fred in the next few episodes.

 

[PsychoPere]

[...] after awhile I get sick of watching someone as old and mature as Angel acting like a jealous teenager [...]

To be fair, most of Angel's actual maturation has only occurred since Whistler and The Powers That Be pointed him towards Buffy. He didn't do much maturing post-Angelus, pre-Champion while he was living on the streets and feeding off of rats, and Angelus certainly wasn't a mature individual, even if he was sadistically brilliant.