Angel: how did you feel about Doyle?

[OdoWanKenobi]

I liked Doyle, but if losing him meant we got Wesley, I'd do that trade in a heartbeat.

100% agreed. I loved Wesley's character development from Buffy season 3 to the end of Angel.

Thirded. Wesley is my favorite Buffy-verse character. I'd would say losing Doyle for him was a fair trade.

 

[Ethros]

Angel started airing in the UK in January 2000, by which time Doyle had already died in the US, and as I read spoilers back then I knew from the get go he wasn't gonna last.
Still, I really liked his character and it was a shame for him to go. That final video message at the end of "Hero" is one of the saddest moments in the Buffyverse

Doyle- If you need help look no further. Angel Investigations is the best. Our rats are low…
Cordelia- Rates!
Doyle- It says rats… Our rates are low, but our standards are high. When the chips are down, at you're at the end of your rope, you need someone you can count on, and that's what you'll find here. Someone who'll go all the way, who'll protect you no matter what. Just don't lose hope. Come on over to our offices, and you'll see that there's still heroes in this world… Is that it? Am I done?

 

[Captaindemotion]

I really liked him. Usually, Irish characters in US tv shows are an embarrassment (Chief O'Brien aside) but I really liked Doyle and the actor playing him. Although I'd heard spoilers that the character got offed before I ever watched Angel (I wasn't a fan of the Buffyverse until some time after Angel was airing), it still gutted me when I began to watch the show and really got attached to the character, knowing what was coming.

Hero is a great episode, with a real emotional punch. I was sure they'd bring Doyle back before the series ended but I suppoe a combination of not wanting to cheapen his death and the actor's own problems ruled that out. Then sadly, his death made it absolutely impossible. Still, it was nice that they acknowledged him in S5. And yes, Lindsay pretending to be Doyle was a real 'WTF?' moment for this viewer too.

 

[amdmiami]

Joss' shows always know how to wring you around when it comes to character deaths.

The ones that hit me the most were

Spoiler

Cordelia, Tara, and Joyce

And I disagree with the person who said that Joss writes Mary and Gary Sue's, because his characters are some of the most complex and memorable characters ever written for television.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Doyle is my 2nd favorite Buffyverse character of all time, following Angel. (Wesley, Gunn, & Fred are ripping each other apart to see who gets to be 3rd.)

Doyle's death, even on multiple rewatchings, is as painful now as it was the first time I saw it. (Same with the deaths of Cordelia & Fred.) While I enjoyed what they did with Wesley, I'd still pick keeping Doyle every time.

I liked Doyle quite a bit. It also seriously ticked me off when Lindsey was using his name in season 5. It was a risky move considering what happened to Glen Quinn.

I recall that, when that happened, there were some folks around here who suspected that Christian Kane really was playing Doyle reincarnated in Lindsey's body.

What Lindsey did was a bit crass but it didn't affect me nearly as much as when Illyria would impersonate Fred in "The Girl in Question" & "Not Fade Away." Those moments reopened the wounds of Fred's death and made them fresh anew.

However, I don't buy Whedon's story that the death of Doyle was planned from the start--I tend to believe it was Quinn's drug problem that hastened his departure from the show.

Perhaps, although you'd think that Whedon would have been aware of that beforehand since Whedon & Quinn had worked together on Roseanne for a few years.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

One annoyance I have is the absence of Doyle in the Season 1 DVD bonus materials. They barely mention him at all in the documentaries, almost acting as if the show hadn't even really started until Wesley showed up. And whereas the photo gallery has tons of photos of Angel, Cordelia, & Wesley, the only photos they have of Doyle are all in demon-face mixed in with the other demon photos.

 

[I am not Spock]

I liked him, and it was sad indeed when they killed him off. What happened to Glenn Quinn in real life too, made it hurt even more

But we did get Wesley out of it (one of my personal favourite Buffyverse characters ever). Joss' shows always have such fabulously written characters.

Someone brought up that Doyle was originally meant to be Whistler...Slightly OT, but does anyone think Whistler coming to rescue Angel from eating rats in dark alleyways, and watch over the Slayer, was all part of Jasmine's plan? Whistler was an agent of the Powers That Be as well, wasn't he? (I know that the PTB weren't mentioned in Buffy, but its implied that he served them). Also, when The First tried to get Angel to kill himself, TPTB were the ones, presumably, that made it snow. Angel was a key part of Jasmine's plan to bring herself into being.

 

[mswood]

Besides a few scenes (typically with Charisma) I never cared for the character and was actually pleased to see him leave (as it helped give the show a more serious tone) it was shot darker then Buffy but at the time its stories weren't that dark.

And I believe his characters death was due to his drug problems. It was damn shame about the death of the actor (however I fell about the character is irrelevant to the lose of the person).

Though I loved the Lindsey's use of the name later in the series. It made it really hit home. Not only for the characters but probably as well for Chris and David (which I am sure helped their performances).

But in fairness to the character of Doyle over 5 years who knows where they would have taken the character (he might have turned out to be a favorite of mine).

I use Wesley as an example, his change from Buffy to Angel 2nd season is really in no way believable. But I didn't care because in a very short time after the start of season 2, Wesley became probably my favorite character on the show.

 

[RoJoHen]

I liked him, and it was sad indeed when they killed him off. What happened to Glenn Quinn in real life too, made it hurt even more

But we did get Wesley out of it (one of my personal favourite Buffyverse characters ever). Joss' shows always have such fabulously written characters.

Someone brought up that Doyle was originally meant to be Whistler...Slightly OT, but does anyone think Whistler coming to rescue Angel from eating rats in dark alleyways, and watch over the Slayer, was all part of Jasmine's plan? Whistler was an agent of the Powers That Be as well, wasn't he? (I know that the PTB weren't mentioned in Buffy, but its implied that he served them). Also, when The First tried to get Angel to kill himself, TPTB were the ones, presumably, that made it snow. Angel was a key part of Jasmine's plan to bring herself into being.

I actually really like watching Buffy and Angel knowing what is coming with Jasmine and The First. Even if stuff wasn't necessarily planned from the start, it's fun inserting the earlier seasons' events into The First's and Jasmine's plans.

 

[RoJoHen]

I use Wesley as an example, his change from Buffy to Angel 2nd season is really in no way believable. But I didn't care because in a very short time after the start of season 2, Wesley became probably my favorite character on the show.

Eh, I thought it was believable enough. He went from being a Watcher behind-the-scenes to actually being out in the field and getting shot. He was forced to "grow up" very quickly, in a manner of speaking.

 

[mswood]

I use Wesley as an example, his change from Buffy to Angel 2nd season is really in no way believable. But I didn't care because in a very short time after the start of season 2, Wesley became probably my favorite character on the show.

Eh, I thought it was believable enough. He went from being a Watcher behind-the-scenes to actually being out in the field and getting shot. He was forced to "grow up" very quickly, in a manner of speaking.

He went in a very short time from a bumbling fool to a serious supernatural fighter and researcher. In roughly 15 episodes time. Sorry not believable in any way shape or form.

Now his development from season 2 through the end of the show, LOVED it.

 

[RoJoHen]

Eh, I guess I didn't really notice.

 

[NileQT87]

You should have payed more attention to Wesley's actions in Consequences (turning Faith in), The Ring (putting an arrow through a guy's hand and twisting it) and Five By Five (taking Faith's torture--not exactly telling her what she wants to hear--and attempting to go at her with the knife before he saw Faith collapse in Angel's arms). Wesley wasn't entirely a bumbling fool in BtVS season 3 and AtS season 1. The dark streak was there from the beginning if you look for it. The Ring is an early precursor to dark-Wesley's stabbing of the heroin junkie in AtS season 4.

I don't think it was abrupt at all. Same with AtS season 2's Wesley being about a halfway point between dork-Wesley and dark-Wesley. It's the aftermath of Billy where he really starts making the switch and not until Loyalty when it really starts to stick.

And yeah, it's hard to watch both Glenn Quinn's "Is that it? Am I done?" and Andy Hallett's "Good night, folks." Both had very sad exits where the real-life factor just makes those lines even more painful than they already were.

 

[I am not Spock]

I think Wes' dark streak was always there, too.

When he first shows up in Angel, he claims to be a rogue demon hunter, which of course, he becomes for real later on.

In Buffy, even, there's a dark side there. When he kidnaps Faith in 'Consequences', for example.

 

[mswood]

Yes their were glimmers of more to Wesley then just a bubbling out of his depth fool, on Buffy and the 2nd half of Angel's first season, but those are the exceptions, not the majority of the material we saw of the character.

And again I liked the changes to the character (absolutely no question there I hated early Wesley), but I didn't find them to transpire in at a believable rate, not at all.

I just found Cordelia and Xanders growth in fighting skills to be better handled over the various seasons.

I do understand why the changes were made, and why they were done as fast as they were (the writers even talk about that in a few interviews, how they were forced to make the character fair darker, competent and edgier then the character was designed for to fit him better into Angel.

 

[Sci]

That's true of most of Angel's characters. I never felt all that invested in them. In fact, I'd say that's true of most of Joss Whedon's characters. I enjoy the stories he tells but the characters often don't work for me quite as well as they should.

I'm almost exactly the opposite. I think his stories are okay, but I get remarkably attached to his characters. I'm still upset that Cordelia died!

I find Joss' shows hard work a lot of the time. I've said this before, but I find his male characters poorly written and his female characters are virtually all Mary Sues.

I, on the other hand, consistently find that Whedon's characters feel far more compelling and real to me than most TV show characters. It's like the guy was hanging out with my friends and put them all on TV fighting vampires or something!

 

[Admiral_Young]

Doyle was fine...I would have preferred seeing Whistler in that role. It took me a while to figure out that Doyle was Mark from Rosanne. It's sad what happened to Glenn Quinn and Andy Harlett's death was shocking when I heard about it. I still forot that he was dead...

 

[Holoaddict]

I liked Doyle, but if losing him meant we got Wesley, I'd do that trade in a heartbeat.

You say that now. But back when season 1 originally aired many of us felt quite different. Fans back then were at best apprehensive, and at worst downright terrified that this bumbling idiot was about to become a regular on Angel. True, it all worked out for the best. But it was still pretty rough for those first several Wes eps.

I also liked Doyle and was sad when he left. However my reaction to Lindsey using his name in season 5 was a bit different. I kept wondering how Spike was so easily fooled. After all he had met the real Doyle four years earlier. It was not until I caught a TNT repeat of Spike's first appearance on ANGEL that I realized the answer. Doyle's name was never used in Spike's presesence for the entire episode.

 

[LeahBoBo]

I liked Doyle from the beginning. I thought it was nice having another Irish character as Angel was Irish as well. And I was sad he was killed off. The only death that bothered me more was Fred's. That one almost made me cry. I think both Glenn and Andy were pretty talented actors. RIP.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Besides a few scenes (typically with Charisma) I never cared for the character and was actually pleased to see him leave (as it helped give the show a more serious tone) it was shot darker then Buffy but at the time its stories weren't that dark.

I dunno. Bumbling Season 1 Wesley seemed far less fitting with the realism tone than Doyle.