Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unveiled!

[Lieut. Arex]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

aridas sofia said:
I like it. It looks modular -- as if the central cockpit is a "bee" type module that one can imagine being applied to other uses.

My first impression was of something evolved from a combination of the workbee and the long-range shuttle's warpsled.

 

[SonicRanger]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

ancient said:

SonicRanger said:

ancient said:
It certainly has the TNG design ethic.

More like the "TNG that was designed but never built" design ethic -- like the Sphinx work pod... Of course, there's reason for that.

Hey, they built it. The first TNG shuttle, that one that looked like an egg-carton, was built in this extremely curvy, earthy way...

Yeah, but the Sphinx workbee or whatever wasn't:

http://techspecs.acalltoduty.com/images/common/workpod.jpg
http://www.shipschematics.net/startrek/images/federation/workpod_sphinx_typem2.jpg

And that design is much more reminiscent of this fighter. Instead, the TNG-era folks use yellow workbees like those in TMP.

 

[Probert]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

The God Thing said:
http://www.probertdesigns.com/Folder_STORE/Folder_CONCEPT-KITS/F-Fighter_KIT.html

Andrew, would it be at all possible for you to give us a brief production backgrounder on this baby?

I'm pleased that so many of you seem to like this little fighter. If asked to do another STSOTL calendar page, I hope to feature this craft,... and, yes, it will be an upcoming 'Concept Kit'.

This "PT Boat" (photon torpedo) was designed for a Trek game being developed at Spectrum Holobyte in the early 1990's which is why it still has some rough edges. It was unused because I was 'reminded' that Star Trek didn't need fighters. I suggested it was an alien craft being ferried to Starfleet for evaluation & possible inclusion. The Enterprise would be attacked and Riker (having past duties & experience with that culture) would fly it into combat. It still didn't happen. Years later, of course, that was overturned but I wasn't a part of it. Obviously, the forward-swept look is nothing new, (a favorite theme of mine) but it does predate the StarGate fighters and those Cylon things.

The ship actually has three phaser strips (look at the chin) and the twin booms are mini photon launchers. The canopy hinges up at the back and entry is via kick-in steps on the port side. Controls are on a panel that spans the armrests, to be lifted off & stowed for entry/exit. There are three extendable landing pads and a repulser on the cabin underside for takeoffs/landings. There are twin impulse-type engines with radical steering & braking capabilities, but this craft has a relatively short range. I don't see this being carried on Starships, per se, but it definitely would be carried aboard dedicated warships.

This model is, again, a preliminary concept and will be refined for the model kit version.

Andrew-

 

[Unicron]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

I'm sort of on the fence. It's an okay design, and it kind of reminds me of some of Jackill's small craft designs, but I'll admit I like those somewhat better.

 

[GalaxyX]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

Hey Andrew. Glad you actually post in this forum, that way I get an change to tell you this:

1. Your design for the Galaxy Class Starship is unmatched!! TNG would not have been the same without that awesome starship.

2. Your design for the Back to the Future Delorean Time Machine was also some bitchin' work, I think most of the Sci-Fi stuff I liked is based on your designs LOL

Ok enough brown-nosing for one post, back to your regularly scheduled thread

 

[GalaxyX]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

would fly it into combat. It still didn't happen. Years later, of course, that was overturned but I wasn't a part of it. Obviously, the forward-swept look is nothing new, (a favorite theme of mine) but it does predate the StarGate fighters and those Cylon things.

I'm not sure who designed the Kilrathi ships in the Wing Commander series, but I find that a lot of this new "forward swept" stuff is very reminiscent of those Kilrathi ship designs.

 

[Unicron]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

I'm not at all familiar with Wing Commander, but there are some nice fighters in Tachyon: The Fringe. If you'd like, GalaxyX, I can PM them to you. Or maybe post them here, if people want a look.

 

[Rat Boy]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

This actually is a perfect fit for the Akira-class, since the only canon fighter is too big to fit through the forward launch doors.

 

[Arpy]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

I'm not sure I like it.

It was probably designed before them too, but it reminds me of the Centauri fighters from Babylon 5, but more than that, I'm one of those guys that doesn't see the point of fighters against starships. And I don't see Starfleet at least employing fighters against lesser-developed worlds.

Beyond that, some questions/concerns...

What sort of engine does it have? Is there enough room for its fuel? ...The impulse exhaust in the back seem mighty large. Where do the phasers get their power from? Shields?

One thing that's always puzzled me: are micro-photon torpedoes all that useful against an enemy using the standard-sized ones? If so, why don't starships stock thousands of them instead of hundreds of their big brothers?

Are those bussard collectors and a deflector dish? ...So then is this a warp-capable ship?

Are there rotation control thrusters?

The controls look pretty low-tech also. I imagine future fighter pilots interfacing in such a way that their slightest, quickest impulse is read and acted on by their machine.

Finally, the figure used is dressed in a uniform I love, but would these pilots be dressed in some sort of EV suit, if that's the right term? Personally, I think some of the uniform variants that have popped up have been pretty unimaginative and the uniforms they do wear haven't been portrayed very well. ...In TOS era they supposedly had internal heating devices, and by TMP high-tech medical scanners, if they weren't outright holo-projections... But that's a whole 'nother thread.

Sorry if I'm being a downer.

I adore the Galaxy Class, the "new" Ambassador Class, and am a big fan of your work, Mr. Probert. Love the concept kits too BTW.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

All a fighter is, is a mobile gun platform. Nothing more, nothing less.

When your "base" itself is mobile, the need to have mobile guns as well is reduced. But when your base is stationary, there's a LOT to be said for being able to shoot at them before they can shoot at you.

And also remember that "mobile" is a relative thing, not just a yes or no question. For instance, an aircraft carrier may be mobile, but it's essentially stationary relative to the aircraft which operate from it.

That's why a carrier doesn't rely on its own built-in weapons for its primary defense. Rather, it flies... c'mon, say it along with me... COMBAT AIR PATROLS. These ships are not intended to, and are in fact incapable of, operating on their own for extended periods. However, they fly an orbit well beyond the carrier group, and as a result the carrier group can engage incoming enemies (aircraft or missiles) much earlier than they otherwise would be able to.

Whoever can hit the other guy first is usually the one to win in any engagement, after all. (That's why the retirement of the Tomcats, and the loss of the associated extended-range Pheonix missile system, replaced with the much shorter-range AAMRAM missile system on F/A-18s, pisses me off so much.)

Now, in TREK terms, most ships we've seen are pretty quick in their own right, so fighters (aka "mobile gun platforms") are not really relevant.

However, if you're talking about a STARBASE, for example, the use of fighter craft (aka "gun platforms that can shoot at the bad guys before the bad guys can shoot at your base") are absolutely essential.

In that situation... assuming that the fighter has a LOT of firepower but not much else (certainly no food services, no lounges, no science labs, etc!)... and has a VERY limited requirement for in-flight time (if you stick with the same analogy I'm using, we're talking about less than 8 hours of flight time, typically)... it's totally reasonable to expect a squadron (that's 12 fighters) to be more than a match for most mid-sized starships, able to engage an incoming ship before it can shoot at your Starbase's nice comfy parks and schools.

See the point now?

 

[Probert]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

Arpy said:
I'm not sure I like it.

I'm one of those guys that doesn't see the point of fighters against starships. And I don't see Starfleet at least employing fighters against lesser-developed worlds.

Beyond that, some questions/concerns...

What sort of engine does it have? Is there enough room for its fuel? ...The impulse exhaust in the back seem mighty large. Where do the phasers get their power from? Shields?

One thing that's always puzzled me: are micro-photon torpedoes all that useful against an enemy using the standard-sized ones? If so, why don't starships stock thousands of them instead of hundreds of their big brothers?

Are those bussard collectors and a deflector dish? ...So then is this a warp-capable ship?

Are there rotation control thrusters?

The controls look pretty low-tech also. I imagine future fighter pilots interfacing in such a way that their slightest, quickest impulse is read and acted on by their machine.

Finally, the figure used is dressed in a uniform I love, but would these pilots be dressed in some sort of EV suit, if that's the right term? Personally, I think some of the uniform variants that have popped up have been pretty unimaginative and the uniforms they do wear haven't been portrayed very well. ...In TOS era they supposedly had internal heating devices, and by TMP high-tech medical scanners, if they weren't outright holo-projections... But that's a whole 'nother thread.

First of all, Gene didn't see the point of fighters against starships either,... but they did seem to do a pretty good job on the DeathStar, in that other galaxy far far away. The point is, you & Gene are probably right,... but there is still something romantic about the little guy takin' out the big guy. Daring pilots in ships too small to seem important, slipping in close and firing a small explosive into some vulnerable spot is still pretty cool to us older guys.

Your questions...

Engine type? Some sort of impulse engines powered by a small reactor (seen at the low rear area). Yes. for short attack runs, there is enough room for fuel & life support. The only shielding is projected toward the front. It's very heavy shielding used only during attack runs to conserve power.

The micro-photon torpedos could not produce the same devastating energy as the standard ones, but they would be strong enough to blow through smaller targets or concentrate that firepower into a tight radius. If you think of a ships shield as a balloon, consider a normal torpedo to be like a hammer while the MPTs are like pins.

This is not a warp-capable ship. You're seeing a forward sensor and the orange sections were originally copied from the Runabouts. Those will evolve into forward firing thrusters for intense velocity reduction. The rotation control thrusters are all on the back of the engines, and those will become evident as the design is refined. Think of a rudder on a boat.

The control panel will evolve.

The uniform is not a standard pilot's flying suit. That was put there to support the game scenario being pitched.

Thanks for your thoughts. Meanwhile, here are a couple of very short animations for you all:

FedFighter flyby

K-Fighter Touch & Go

I'm definitely not an animator, so you may have a laugh at these, but they'll provide more fun stuff to talk about.

Andrew-

 

[Unicron]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

I think Cary makes a good point about the fact that capital ships in Trek seem pretty maneuverable for their size, but I'm still not entirely convinced that they'd be totally useless. I think they could be used against other fighters, as has been the case in Star Wars, B5, and every other series I've seen that uses them. Nor am I convinced that merely using tons of non-fighter munitions is the best route either, because a missile can't react like a living being. It doesn't matter how advanced the technology becomes, it would never be the same as a piloted weapons platform. It might be more preferable in some cases though.

 

[Data Holmes]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

Unicron said:
I think Cary makes a good point about the fact that capital ships in Trek seem pretty maneuverable for their size, but I'm still not entirely convinced that they'd be totally useless. I think they could be used against other fighters, as has been the case in Star Wars, B5, and every other series I've seen that uses them. Nor am I convinced that merely using tons of non-fighter munitions is the best route either, because a missile can't react like a living being. It doesn't matter how advanced the technology becomes, it would never be the same as a piloted weapons platform. It might be more preferable in some cases though.

I like how it was shown in DS9, the Episode with the galaxy class Odyssey. The ship seemed sluggish and slower compared to the Runabouts and Bugs.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

hutt359 said:

Unicron said:
I think Cary makes a good point about the fact that capital ships in Trek seem pretty maneuverable for their size, but I'm still not entirely convinced that they'd be totally useless. I think they could be used against other fighters, as has been the case in Star Wars, B5, and every other series I've seen that uses them. Nor am I convinced that merely using tons of non-fighter munitions is the best route either, because a missile can't react like a living being. It doesn't matter how advanced the technology becomes, it would never be the same as a piloted weapons platform. It might be more preferable in some cases though.

I like how it was shown in DS9, the Episode with the galaxy class Odyssey. The ship seemed sluggish and slower compared to the Runabouts and Bugs.

Agreed. It's a simple matter of mass versus momentum. Smaller means quicker to respond, given a proportionate expenditure of energy.

The main reason I don't see fighters as standard shipboard equipment is that (as Andrew points out, above) the firepower of these ships is somewhat limited in comparison to that of the capital ships.

It's like looking at the A-10... which has AWESOME firepower for its size (and is the best modern-day equivalent to what I see fighters in Trekdom being like) against the Battleship Missouri (if it was still in operation). Imagine if the big guns on that ship could traverse a whole lot faster...

That's what we're looking at here. A fighter, alone, will be killed by a single hit from a major capital ship (like a Galaxy, for instance), and no matter how much firepower you pack into the fighter frame, it (by itself) won't be able to scratch the paint.

On the other hand, put a couple of squadrons of the same thing into a coordinated attack, and they'll be able to (through Andrew's "pinpricks versus hammers" analogy) knock out the major weapons systems without taking unacceptable damage (say, less than 1/3 of the fighters are destroyed before the Galaxy is defanged). Once the Galaxy's weapons are offline, the fighters can pick it to pieces at their leisure. They don't have to "blow it up with a single shot," they can remove the weapons, then knock out shield generators, then basically rip it to ribbons.

The trick is to "pull the fangs" in a very well-coordinated attack with lots of small ships at once. If you don't manage that, the Galaxy will simply pick off each little fighter at its leisure and never be in any danger.

 

[aridas sofia]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

Re: what you're saying, Cary -- I should point out that while the killer bee was one of the first attempts at this kind of thing within Trek fandom that I know of, it wasn't in any way a traditional "fighter". It was called an "assault pod" to differentiate it from the TMP-era fighter Andrew had drawn, and that was based on his smaller, ship-bourne shuttle. The killer bee's job was to work in tandem with such craft and break through a ship's outer defenses to deliver a drone attack -- dozens of "phaser bots" designed to weaken an enemy ship's shields. The bees were to evade destruction long enough to deliver their torps once a breach was detected.

 

[Unicron]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

Cary L. Brown said:

The main reason I don't see fighters as standard shipboard equipment is that (as Andrew points out, above) the firepower of these ships is somewhat limited in comparison to that of the capital ships.

It's like looking at the A-10... which has AWESOME firepower for its size (and is the best modern-day equivalent to what I see fighters in Trekdom being like) against the Battleship Missouri (if it was still in operation). Imagine if the big guns on that ship could traverse a whole lot faster...

That's what we're looking at here. A fighter, alone, will be killed by a single hit from a major capital ship (like a Galaxy, for instance), and no matter how much firepower you pack into the fighter frame, it (by itself) won't be able to scratch the paint.

On the other hand, put a couple of squadrons of the same thing into a coordinated attack, and they'll be able to (through Andrew's "pinpricks versus hammers" analogy) knock out the major weapons systems without taking unacceptable damage (say, less than 1/3 of the fighters are destroyed before the Galaxy is defanged). Once the Galaxy's weapons are offline, the fighters can pick it to pieces at their leisure. They don't have to "blow it up with a single shot," they can remove the weapons, then knock out shield generators, then basically rip it to ribbons.

The trick is to "pull the fangs" in a very well-coordinated attack with lots of small ships at once. If you don't manage that, the Galaxy will simply pick off each little fighter at its leisure and never be in any danger.

That's pretty much how I see it. I don't like the fighter vs. capital ship comparison, because I just don't think it's workable. A lone fighter or a small group would never attack a giant enemy on their own cause they'd get smashed. But use them in large numbers and with backup from friendly warships, and they become reasonably effective. Aside from that, their main value is handling enemy small craft like shuttles or fighters that can be dealt with without calling in a warship.

 

[General_Phoenix]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

Reminds me of a Kilrathi fighter from Wing Commander.

 

[General_Phoenix]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

Unicron said:

That's pretty much how I see it. I don't like the fighter vs. capital ship comparison, because I just don't think it's workable. A lone fighter or a small group would never attack a giant enemy on their own cause they'd get smashed. But use them in large numbers and with backup from friendly warships, and they become reasonably effective. Aside from that, their main value is handling enemy small craft like shuttles or fighters that can be dealt with without calling in a warship.

The whole reason the rebel fighters worked so well against the first Death Star was because they didn't think small fighters would be any threat, it seems their weapons were aimed more at big capital ships - which was ultimately their downfall (that and a little something called the Force...) but I think small fighters can be very effective against a larger, more cumbersome ship. Fighters did ravage ships of various natures during WWII as well.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

The trick with WWII ships being vulnerable to fighters was the lack of a practical anti-air-defense system. They had FLACK GUNS... (Flack guns fire rounds that burst like grenades, filling the air with shrapnel. The hope is that the fighters fly through the shrapnel and take damage.)

Modern ships have long-range interceptor missiles, phalanx cannon, and things like that... which are much more effective at taking out incoming aircraft. When combined with the CAPs flying orbit around any carrier group, this renders them pretty much invulnerable to fighter attack.

And that's without having the same speed and accuracy of tracking that Trek ships are supposed to have (phaser strips, after all, don't have any moving parts, so there's ZERO theoretical "traverse time")

So in modern anti-ship combat, as opposed to WWII anti-ship combat, you're almost entirely dependent on fast, low-flying cruise missiles (like the Silkworms our "friends" in China have been mass-producing and selling at wholesale to anyone likely to shoot at us... Iran has bought hundreds of 'em, for instance.)

The trick for modern ships is to take out the incoming missiles... hence the MAIN role of the Phalanx cannon... essentially becoming a "flack gun" to take THOSE down by laying out a cloud of lead in the flight path of the missile.

Now, the whole "fighters are useless" argument is predicated on one thing... detectability/targetability. If you have some sort of STEALTH fighters (ahem)... you can fly up and attack..."pull the fangs"... and then escape with a reasonable likelihood of success.

SO... by that argument, in Trek terms, there in only one real offensive way to use fighters (defensive is another story, and I've covered that before... defense of stationary facilities). Offensive fighters make fantastic sense... if they have near-perfect stealth characteristics...

SO... why hasn't anybody given us a ROMULAN fighter, I have to wonder?

(FYI... "Enterprise" did this pretty well... the Suliban cell-ships were basically full-ECM-equipped fighters, after all... weak by themselves but effective when deployed in large groups)

 

[Patrickivan]

Re: Andrew Probert's ST:TNG Federation Fighter Concept Unvei

Looks like something out of Andromeda.

Seems a little silly to have little fighters when there are phasers and photon torpedoes at the Federation's disposal.

Star Trek is really getting ridiculous with everything revolving around power and weapons. Seems no one is interested in anything except designs meant for battle and war.

Gene's vision is truly realized.