Spoilers Andor - Season 2

[Crazyewok]

Hey, Dedra might have a change of heart.

Dedra became a irredeemable war criminal the moment she gave Capatin Kaido the order to fire.


She directed responsible for a genocide. She past the point of no return.

That episode highlighted the difference between Syril and Dedra. Syril had the moral fortitude to say no and walk away. Dedra didn't and stayed the course. Syril truly was a decent being trying to do right in his own way, Dedra motives is just personal ambition.

Syril would have made a good head of military police in the alliance making sure the rebel regular forces don't commit crimes of their own.

 

[Crazyewok]

I had a passing respect for that Sergeant. You could tell he knew this deployment was complete shite and ordered under dubious circumstances but he couldn't refuse orders.

Imperial army unlike stormtroopers are just conscripts and desperate men like Han solo trying to escape poverty and desperation. Luke was going to join the Imperial academy simply to get off tattooine.

The Imperial army unlike stormtroopers seem rather competent, they nearly foiled the aldani robbery and seem to be able to hit their targets.

The sergent seemed to be the sort that was looking out for his men and could see Captain Kaido and the ISB was up to no good. But as a sergeant refusal to follow orders would land him in prisoners at best.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Dedra became a irredeemable war criminal the moment she gave Capatin Kaido the order to fire.


She directed responsible for a genocide. She past the point of no return.

In reality, I'm sure she'll double down and become an even worse human being. (Sentient being?)

 

[Reverend]

Dedra is a straight-up psycho. This arc shows that the real fundamental difference between Cyrill and herself is that for all of his many many many flaws, at his core he's an idealist. He believes in doing the right thing as he sees it (very rigidly, and obsessively.) He's a believer in what the Empire claims to stand for; he's fully bought the propaganda. Dedra couldn't care less about the ideals. She's in it for the power and control over others.

I think some may have been misinterpreting her behaviour in episode 8; she wasn't freaking out and getting twitchy because she was having moral reservations or second thoughts about what they're about to do to the Ghor; she was freaking out because she was loosing control of the situation, and control means everything to her.
First with the rebels not taking the bait as readily as she'd like, forcing her to directly incite. Her role was reduced to a mere formality with the actual tactical command taken from her by the "crisis specialist."
Secondly being that close to a riot was causing her to have a PTSD flashback to her experience of nearly being torn apart by a mob on Ferrix. And finally, she was loosing control of Cyrill to the point where she felt physically threatened by him for the first time ever.

For someone that spends their life behind a desk, with just occasional visits to the interrogation cells, feeling that vulnerable would be a deeply unnerving experience.

As for what's going to happen in the next arc; one assumes she'll finally track down Luthen, and it'll cost her her life.

(which is why I'm desperately hoping there isn't any kind of distant epilogue next week; as far as I'm concerned, R1 must be able to slot in cleanly as the fifth arc of season 2).

Disagree! If I don't get a bittersweet coda of Bix and Bee at the Endor after party, I may throw things!

Hey, Dedra might have a change of heart.

You can't change what you don't have!

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Syril's death will cover Dedra's breech of security that occurred when she told him about the mineral in the "dirt."

 

[FPAlpha]

Hey, Dedra might have a change of heart.

At this point the only thing that would be just would be her meeting Luthen and him squeezing every last bit of information out of her, let her confess everything before he kills her.

The Rebellion took in tons of ex-Imperials who realized they don't agree with the Imperium or at some point received morally wrong orders like firing on civilians and they realized it's time to switch sides. Dedra is beyond this point, she gave the order to start the massacre and knowing this no rebel cell would accept her.

 

[Crazyewok]

At this point the only thing that would be just would be her meeting Luthen and him squeezing every last bit of information out of her, let her confess everything before he kills her.

The Rebellion took in tons of ex-Imperials who realized they don't agree with the Imperium or at some point received morally wrong orders like firing on civilians and they realized it's time to switch sides. Dedra is beyond this point, she gave the order to start the massacre and knowing this no rebel cell would accept her.

Exactly.

Syril walked away and he would be he sort of person the Rebellion would except with open arms. He immediately saw what was wrong.

Dedra was a moral coward who followed through. She is a war criminal.

Its like Rudolf Hess who decided in 1941 to leave the NAZIs and defect to the UK. UK said NOPE, put the fucker through the wringer for intelligence and then locked him up.

 

[Crewman6]

So now that we know that the Ghorman senator was arrested for no legal reason at all, how was Bail NOT arrested behind the scenes of ANH? It was already shaky way back in 1977 to be honest that Tarkin blew him up without even trying to interrogate him but now with what we've seen about the Empire it makes even less sense.

In ANH, the Empire still had to tip-toe around the Imperial Senate and the "growing sympathy" for the rebellion.

Of course, maybe they will retcon his death and bring Bratt back as Organa with the handwave that he spent the entire original trilogy in a Coruscant prison or something...

There is zero chance this happens.

 

[Crewman6]

The Imperial army unlike stormtroopers seem rather competent, they nearly foiled the aldani robbery and seem to be able to hit their targets.

Stormtroopers are extremely competent and routinely hit their targets.

Stormtroopers "always missing" is a silly internet joke that has no real basis in canon (although it was parroted in an episode of the Mandalorian) and has gotten quite out of control and quite stale at this point.

It derived from the fact that our heroes don't actually get shot by the bad guys in Star Wars. Big whoop, you could say the same thing about literally every movie, ever.

And, of course, this ignores the fact that the stormtroopers were actually deliberately missing during the final moments of the Death Star escape as they were under orders to let the heroes go.

So, you could argue that, specifically because they didn't hit Han/Luke/Leia/Chewie, stormtroopers are indeed excellent shots.

 

[Awesome Possum]

It’s just a recast, it’s not a plot point.

Hopefully it’s a sign that they’re willing to recast a major character like Luke for future stories.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Stormtroopers are extremely competent and routinely hit their targets.

Stormtroopers "always missing" is a silly internet joke that has no real basis in canon (although it was parroted in an episode of the Mandalorian) and has gotten quite out of control and quite stale at this point.

It derived from the fact that our heroes don't actually get shot by the bad guys in Star Wars. Big whoop, you could say the same thing about literally every movie, ever.

And, of course, this ignores the fact that the stormtroopers were actually deliberately missing during the final moments of the Death Star escape as they were under orders to let the heroes go.

So, you could argue that, specifically because they didn't hit Han/Luke/Leia/Chewie, stormtroopers are indeed excellent shots.

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Or is it an even deeper mystery?

 

[Crewman6]

Dedra couldn't care less about the ideals. She's in it for the power and control over others.

Disagree. Power and control are the Empire's actual ideals and she cares about them very much. She supports rigidly a twisted idea of loyalty and duty and has never been much for personal ambition (beyond demanding the respect she's entitled to.)

 

[Crazyewok]

Stormtroopers are extremely competent and routinely hit their targets.

Stormtroopers "always missing" is a silly internet joke that has no real basis in canon (although it was parroted in an episode of the Mandalorian) and has gotten quite out of control and quite stale at this point.

It derived from the fact that our heroes don't actually get shot by the bad guys in Star Wars. Big whoop, you could say the same thing about literally every movie, ever.

And, of course, this ignores the fact that the stormtroopers were actually deliberately missing during the final moments of the Death Star escape as they were under orders to let the heroes go.

So, you could argue that, specifically because they didn't hit Han/Luke/Leia/Chewie, stormtroopers are indeed excellent shots.

There is actually a parallel with the Waffen SS. Which is like the stormtrooper corps. A separate army based on political ideology and fanatism.

Yes you had some elite SS division who did fight well. But many of them where just methed up armed thugs good only for terrorising civilian and committing atrocities.

 

[Yistaan]

At this point the only thing that would be just would be her meeting Luthen and him squeezing every last bit of information out of her, let her confess everything before he kills her.

The Rebellion took in tons of ex-Imperials who realized they don't agree with the Imperium or at some point received morally wrong orders like firing on civilians and they realized it's time to switch sides. Dedra is beyond this point, she gave the order to start the massacre and knowing this no rebel cell would accept her.

That's why the sequel trilogy makes no sense. Kylo Ren has to know that Han's offer to come home with him is nonsensical as the New Republic will be hunting him over Hosnian (unless Leia has some sort of immunity deal ready but it's never mentioned, and going by Bloodline her influence over the New Republic was shot. Don't even get into Han and Chewie running from Kanjiklub etc.). Same with Hux being a spy--it makes no sense unless Hux got some sort of secret promise that he'll be immune from prosecution in return for spying on the First Order.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

I don't think Dedra had any choice but to pass on the order to proceed with the massacre. She was just the middleman in the chain of command. The massacre was going to happen that day, that hour whether she ordered it or not. The Empire didn't move all of the chess pieces, the troops and mining craft, into position to allow for a single point of failure in their plan. The Emperor had a personal interest in what was happening. By this point Dedra was obsolete. If Dedra had ordered them to stand down, open the square, and let the civilians out, then the tactical commander would not have complied. He was sent there to carry out a mission, not to set it up and then take it down and walk away. He would have arrested her on the spot and called his superiors, and someone would consult Partagaz. Partagaz wouldn't back Dedra. He'd simply reaffirm the order he had given her that she had failed to execute. She'd've been branded a traitor and taken away, never to be seen again on the galactic stage. If she'd tried to stall, same thing. They couldn't wait all day, someone was going to call up the chain to ask why they were just waiting.

 

[Yistaan]

I don't think Dedra had any choice but to pass on the order to proceed with the massacre. She was just the middleman in the chain of command. The massacre was going to happen that day, that hour whether she ordered it or not. The Empire didn't move all of the chess pieces, the troops and mining craft, into position to allow for a single point of failure in their plan. The Emperor had a personal interest in what was happening. By this point Dedra was obsolete. If Dedra had ordered them to stand down, open the square, and let the civilians out, then the tactical commander would not have complied. He was sent there to carry out a mission, not to set it up and then take it down and walk away. He would have arrested her on the spot and called his superiors., who would have consulted Partagaz. Partagaz wouldn't back Dedra. He'd simply reaffirm the order he had given her that she had failed to execute. She'd've been branded a traitor and taken away, never to be seen again on the galactic stage.

If Dedra went out and shouted "Get out of here it's a trap" she might have saved a lot of lives. Yeah she'll be arrested etc. but who knows if she manages to take advantage of the ensuing chaos she might escape. After all Mon Mothma does the equivalent one episode later and against all odds she did escape.

As for what's going to happen in the next arc; one assumes she'll finally track down Luthen, and it'll cost her her life.

The odds are against Luthen surviving such an encounter. Or Wilmon surviving either for that matter. A key plot point of Rogue One is that the Alliance has no one left on speaking terms with Saw to get Bodhi Rook. That's why they recruit Jyn. Luthen and Wilmon were last on speaking terms with Saw. So they either fall out with Saw also or they die.

Come to think of it, Saw straight up killing Luthen and/or Wilmon isn't out of the question as the Alliance has to know by Rogue that Saw deals with emissaries from them lethally and the only way they'd know that is if Saw already shot up someone trying to visit him on behalf of Mothma.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Dedra became a irredeemable war criminal the moment she gave Capatin Kaido the order to fire.

She directed responsible for a genocide. She past the point of no return.

Point of order.

She passed that threshold when she tortured Bix.

 

[Yistaan]

Point of order.

She passed that threshold when she tortured Bix.

Dedra: To quote Lord Vader in similar situations, she was not permanently harmed. And no I don't consider psychological trauma to be permanent harm.

(unfortunately that's how these type of people think, and those are the "nicer" ones who don't permanently mutilate the people they torture. For example I'm sure Gul Madred thinks he's a straight up nice guy for not neutering Picard like a wild targ in Chain of Command)

 

[CorporalCaptain]

If Dedra went out and shouted "Get out of here it's a trap" she might have saved a lot of lives.

No, the gates were closed. Those people weren't getting out. Those who escaped eventually got out only after sufficiently many Imperial troops had been killed so that they couldn't guard all the exits. Part of the propaganda was that the Imperials were innocent martyrs. If they'd had legions of troops, more than enough so that attrition would never be an issue, then that narrative would have been less likely to stick.

In any case, what happened in the square did not impact the mining operation at all. The mining operation was never in any danger, no matter how many civilians got out eventually. The purpose was to influence public opinion in the galaxy at large.

So, what happens if Dedra does as you suggest? The order goes out on channel 5 as planned, Imperial troops start dying in the square, and the result is essentially the same.

 

[Yistaan]

Dedra: Oh no I'm dead! Am I in Force hell now for the Ghorman massacre?

(spoiler for Tales of the Underworld)

Spoiler

Talzin: Nah, someone dunked your body in a Dathomirian Lazarus pit. I might scare you by saying you need to give up something to resurrect but the institution you worshipped, the Empire, just got destroyed so that's already gone so resurrection it is!