• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Ancient Humanoid and Female Changeling one in the same?

los2188

Commander
Red Shirt
A point was brought up to me the other day that the ancient humanoid from TNG episode "The Chase" and the female changeling founder might be one in the same. With that being suggested to me, would this humanoid also be the same humanoid on the TOS episode of "Paradise Syndrome?" Just curious as to what others think about this...
 
A point was brought up to me the other day that the ancient humanoid from TNG episode "The Chase" and the female changeling founder might be one in the same. With that being suggested to me, would this humanoid also be the same humanoid on the TOS episode of "Paradise Syndrome?" Just curious as to what others think about this...
What humanoid "Paradise Syndrome" are you referring to?
 
A point was brought up to me the other day that the ancient humanoid from TNG episode "The Chase" and the female changeling founder might be one in the same. With that being suggested to me, would this humanoid also be the same humanoid on the TOS episode of "Paradise Syndrome?" Just curious as to what others think about this...
What humanoid "Paradise Syndrome" are you referring to?

Probably means the unseen Preservers.
 
I am referring to the Preservers. Would it make sense if the Founders and the ancient humanoid were the same?
 
I am referring to the Preservers. Would it make sense if the Founders and the ancient humanoid were the same?

Probably not.

One was seeding worlds with genetic materials, the other were moving people outright to similar worlds.

The Preservers probably existed long after the people from "The Chase" went extinct.
 
A point was brought up to me the other day that the ancient humanoid from TNG episode "The Chase" and the female changeling founder might be one in the same. With that being suggested to me, would this humanoid also be the same humanoid on the TOS episode of "Paradise Syndrome?" Just curious as to what others think about this...
What humanoid "Paradise Syndrome" are you referring to?

Probably means the unseen Preservers.
Do we know that the Preservers were humanoid? Also the Preservers M.O. is rescuing cultures from extinction, not seeding the Galaxy with humanoid DNA and I don't they're old enough to have a connection with the ancient Humanoids. The culture Kirk found on Mirimanees's world was't very old on a galactic scale so the Preserves would have saved them "recently".

The Changelings are probably just another species seeded with Humanoid DNA. They just look a different evolutionary path.
 
The Changelings are probably just another species seeded with Humanoid DNA. They just look a different evolutionary path.

Just because they can shape themselves as humanoid doesn't mean they have humanoid DNA. Having them be a humanoid off-shoot just seems like a lack of imagination.
 
The Changelings are probably just another species seeded with Humanoid DNA. They just look a different evolutionary path.

Just because they can shape themselves as humanoid doesn't mean they have humanoid DNA. Having them be a humanoid off-shoot just seems like a lack of imagination.
Just looking a reason they took the shape they did. Maybe the first solids they encountered looked like that.
 
The Changelings are probably just another species seeded with Humanoid DNA. They just look a different evolutionary path.

Just because they can shape themselves as humanoid doesn't mean they have humanoid DNA. Having them be a humanoid off-shoot just seems like a lack of imagination.
Just looking a reason they took the shape they did. Maybe the first solids they encountered looked like that.

Very possible. :techman:
 
The Changelings are probably just another species seeded with Humanoid DNA. They just look a different evolutionary path.

Just because they can shape themselves as humanoid doesn't mean they have humanoid DNA. Having them be a humanoid off-shoot just seems like a lack of imagination.

IIRC, the Female Shapeshifter once mentioned that at one time, long, long ago, the Founders were confined to a "solid" state, and that they evolved beyond that. Perhaps I'm mistaken?
 
The Changelings are probably just another species seeded with Humanoid DNA. They just look a different evolutionary path.

Just because they can shape themselves as humanoid doesn't mean they have humanoid DNA. Having them be a humanoid off-shoot just seems like a lack of imagination.

IIRC, the Female Shapeshifter once mentioned that at one time, long, long ago, the Founders were confined to a "solid" state, and that they evolved beyond that. Perhaps I'm mistaken?

You may well be right. I'm far more versed in TOS/TNG than I am in DS9.
 
First off, assuming the Female Changeling is the same individual as the First Humanoid woman who died 4 billion years ago makes no more sense than assuming that Brunt and Shran are the same person. Sometimes one actor plays more than one role. No sense reading more into it than that.

Second, it makes no sense to equate the Preservers with the First Humanoids, because the Preservers are a modern group, not an ancient one. Think about it. They transplanted Native Americans to another planet because their mission was to preserve endangered cultures. Well, Native Americans weren't endangered until Europeans colonized their continent in the 17th century! Not to mention that the Navajo, one of the cultures Spock claimed to be represented by Miramanee's people, didn't exist as a distinct culture until the 17th century (they were sort of a hybrid of the Pueblo and another culture). So the one and only instance we have of Preserver activity dates from only 3-400 years ago, our time. There's absolutely no evidence that they were around in more ancient times. (We don't even know if they are a distinct species or civilization, for that matter. They could've just been an organization like Greenpeace or the Audubon Society.)

And it makes no sense to equate a four-billion-year-old civilization with any currently existing species or group, because the time differential is just too monumentally long. Species tend to last a few million years, civilizations only a few thousand. Remember, the First Humanoids seeded the primordial soup of worlds that had single-celled life at most, if even that. It was billions of years after that before any multicellular life emerged on Earth. We're talking a yawning, incomprehensibly vast chasm of time between then and now. Given the way evolution works in the Trek universe, the First Humanoids would've probably long since evolved into an incorporeal form like the Q or Organians.


Just looking a reason they took the shape they did. Maybe the first solids they encountered looked like that.

The Changelings we saw in DS9 took the form they used in order to mimic Odo's appearance, which in turn was his approximation of the Bajoran form. We have no evidence that any Changeling took that form before they met Odo. Remember that Laas, who independently adopted a humanoid form before meeting Odo, picked a totally different appearance than the one Odo used, basing it on the people of Varala, where he learned to adopt a humanoid form.
 
The Changelings we saw in DS9 took the form they used in order to mimic Odo's appearance, which in turn was his approximation of the Bajoran form. We have no evidence that any Changeling took that form before they met Odo.

You're actually wrong here. We do know that they did. According to the Female Shapeshifter (or one of the Founders), their approximation of the humanoid form is modeled after the "solid" humanoid taskmasters who enslaved them eons ago. I forget exactly which episode of DS9 it was in which that was stated, but it was stated on-screen.
 
The Changelings we saw in DS9 took the form they used in order to mimic Odo's appearance, which in turn was his approximation of the Bajoran form. We have no evidence that any Changeling took that form before they met Odo.

You're actually wrong here. We do know that they did. According to the Female Shapeshifter (or one of the Founders), their approximation of the humanoid form is modeled after the "solid" humanoid taskmasters who enslaved them eons ago. I forget exactly which episode of DS9 it was in which that was stated, but it was stated on-screen.

I'm sorry, but I'm not the one in error. Here's Word of God from Ron Moore himself:

Odo modelled his look after Dr. Mora and the Founders then modelled their look after Odo. They did this initially as a compliment and way of reaching out to their long-lost Changeling, and later they kept doing it as a dig and reminder to him of his own limitations.

After all, Odo learned his form completely on his own, with no contact with the other Founders. We know for a fact that his appearance is a rough mimicry of Dr. Mora Pol, the Bajoran scientist who raised him. There's no way Odo would've coincidentally arrived at the same form as some ancient species known to the Founders when he'd never yet met the Founders.

In fact, the Female Shapeshifter didn't say her people were enslaved by solids, but persecuted by them -- and not by a single species, but by solids in general:

FEMALE: The Great Link tells us that many years ago our people roamed the stars, searching out other races so we could add to our knowledge of the galaxy. We went in peace, but too often we were met with suspicion, hatred and violence.
ODO: Why?
FEMALE: The Solids feared our metamorphic abilities, so we were beaten, hunted and killed. Finally we arrived here. And here, safe in our isolation, we made our home.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DS9/448.htm

So there never was a single humanoid species that they modeled themselves after. I don't know where you could've gotten that impression.
 
...Anybody know which episode carries the mention of the Founders once having been Solid themselves?

(We don't even know if they are a distinct species or civilization, for that matter. They could've just been an organization like Greenpeace or the Audubon Society.)
Or, considering that they deliberately put the Injuns in harm's way, on a planet subjected to constant asteroid bombardment, they may have been a group of interstellar sadists, playing their perverse games with peoples nobody would miss. Or perhaps slavers like the Skagarrans or the Briori, intent on using the Americans as slave labor in extracting minerals from all those asteroids they'd send to the planet and then lower to the surface with their tractor and probable cutter beams...

And it makes no sense to equate a four-billion-year-old civilization with any currently existing species or group, because the time differential is just too monumentally long.
Moreover, it appeared that the ancient humanoids who seeded the galaxy were motivated by the need to leave a monument once they themselves bowed out. We get the impression that their seeding efforts only started producing humanoid results relatively recently, in the past billion years or so:

"We knew that one day we would be gone, that nothing of us would survive. So, we left you. Our scientists seeded the primordial oceans of many worlds, where life was in its infancy. The seed codes directed your evolution toward a physical form resembling ours." [..] "You are a monument, not to our greatness, but to our existence. That was our wish, that you too would know life, and would keep alive our memory."
So the defining characteristic of those four-billion-year-old humanoids is that they are gone. At the very least, they are no longer humanoid.

...Now, whether the next step these people took was to abandon a single physical form and become Changelings, we don't know. But in four billion years, even that trick would have grown old and stale, and surely they would have ascended to even higher levels, just like Christopher says - and certainly would not have resigned to being persecuted!

Timo Saloniemi
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top