"Ancient England"

[Timewalker]

But perhaps to these people anything pre-warp, or perhaps even pre-federation is labeled 'ancient'.

"Ancient", if you're not interacting with professional historians, is subjective. I've noticed this with my interactions on various online forums and FB. Anything that happened pre-internet tends to be considered "ancient" and unrelateable, unless you were born in the early 1980s or before. I've actually witnessed someone being confronted with a rotary dial phone and having no idea how to use it.

Janeway isn't a historian, so she tends to think of anything prior to her own time, or maybe her parents' generation as "ancient".

I thought of it like an escape room. And like you, I considered it a problem-solving exercise for a science-officer-turned-captain.

@Ragitsu - I always liked Tuvok's confusion over Beowulf because Spock's vast, in-depth knowledge of seemingly all Earth history and literature never really connected with me. Perhaps security-minded Vulcans 100 years after TOS weren't as well-read in all things Earth.

In her holonovels, Janeway seems to be eager to teach math and science to the kids. Maybe she's had a secret wish to be a teacher, or maybe she'd like a better-behaved student than Naomi? Not sure what kind of educational structure they set up for Naomi, other than the Doctor seems to be in charge of some of it, and maybe Seven? Though it seems that Naomi is more of a teacher to Seven, showing her how to have fun.

As for Tuvok, if you come from a culture "bred to peace", why would you be interested in reading alien literature about a culture obsessed with violence?

When did we start seeing Ancient Egypt, Rome and Greece as ancient? Was it during the Renaissance or the Industrial Revolution or what?

Egypt and Rome are so old, that there's a time in their history that is ancient even to them. A Roman of the 4th century CE would consider the Republic to be ancient times, and the time of kings even more ancient. They'd be accustomed to having emperors, so the concepts of the Empire as set forth by Augustus in the 1st century would be familiar, but the idea of hereditary power would be an unfamiliar concept (after Nero, there weren't that many multi-generational dynasties ruling Rome in which the younger generations were related by blood rather than by adoption, at least in the Western Empire).

As for Egypt... the time of the pyramid builders was an ancient to the people of Antony & Cleopatra's time as Cleopatra's time is to us.

That's a very good point about Tuvok. As for Spock, it does make sense that Amanda would have taught him about Earth culture; I really do like that idea. But then you have so few references to her during the series other than the ep in which she does appear

Amanda was in the Animated Series episode "Yesteryear." I do not give any fraction of a damn what anyone says about official canon. That episode had enough going for it that it deserved to have been part of the live action series, and it's a shame it wasn't written sooner.

She was also in the fourth movie, helping to guide Spock through his re-training, and had to explain the question "How do you feel?".

Well said. Perhaps I should have made my point more broadly, saying that it was refreshing to have a consistently-written Vulcan, and not one who was a surpassing Earth expert - down to encyclopedic knowledge of seemingly every Earth event and cultural phenomenon . . . but also depending on the week. I love TOS and Spock, but the TOS writers were all over the map with how to express "Spock = smart" and it didn’t always land, to put it mildly. In the best TOS eps, or in my favorites? Oh yeah. In others? Nah.

Part of Spock's education was overlooked. He had no idea what "Oochy-woochy coochy-coo" meant, after all.

 

[Lynx]

If you've never read Northanger Abbey I'd recommend it. It's basically a sendup of Gothic lit, from a contemporary of the genre no less. Quite interesting.

That's a very good point about Tuvok. As for Spock, it does make sense that Amanda would have taught him about Earth culture; I really do like that idea. But then you have so few references to her during the series other than the ep in which she does appear, even after its events, and soooooooooo many references to Spock not wanting to become human and considering it an insult to be deemed more human, etc. I know some of that was to needle McCoy and even Kirk, but still. Spock's inconsistent writing really bugs me. Kirk and Scotty are depicted so much more constantly. McCoy is, like Spock, all over the place, but the writers' week-to-week take on Spock is something that troubles me to this day about my very favorite show. I suspect many frequenters of this forum (for my second-favorite show) feel the same way about Janeway.

I can agree about Spock in this case.

As for Janeway, I think she was OK in the first three seasons when she did seem to be very caring for each and every crew member.

She became a bit strange, to say the least in later seasons due to sloppy and inconsistent writing.

 

[fireproof78]

Part of Spock's education was overlooked. He had no idea what "Oochy-woochy coochy-coo" meant, after all.

Common slang sometimes is hard to translate culture to culture.

 

[Phaser Two]

"Ancient", if you're not interacting with professional historians, is subjective. I've noticed this with my interactions on various online forums and FB. Anything that happened pre-internet tends to be considered "ancient" and unrelateable, unless you were born in the early 1980s or before. I've actually witnessed someone being confronted with a rotary dial phone and having no idea how to use it.

Janeway isn't a historian, so she tends to think of anything prior to her own time, or maybe her parents' generation as "ancient".


In her holonovels, Janeway seems to be eager to teach math and science to the kids. Maybe she's had a secret wish to be a teacher, or maybe she'd like a better-behaved student than Naomi? Not sure what kind of educational structure they set up for Naomi, other than the Doctor seems to be in charge of some of it, and maybe Seven? Though it seems that Naomi is more of a teacher to Seven, showing her how to have fun.

As for Tuvok, if you come from a culture "bred to peace", why would you be interested in reading alien literature about a culture obsessed with violence?

No doubt, although the Vulcans had quite a violent history themselves, leading to their core principles of logic and peace. And if Tuvok wasn't interested in Earth lit for the reason you supplied, Spock shouldn't have been either . . . .

Good call on Janeway wanting to provide the Bronte-Austen youngsters with some STEM. I loved, loved, loved that she was a science officer. Also, I think Neelix had a role in Naomi's education as well. And let's not forget her mother.

Egypt and Rome are so old, that there's a time in their history that is ancient even to them. A Roman of the 4th century CE would consider the Republic to be ancient times, and the time of kings even more ancient. They'd be accustomed to having emperors, so the concepts of the Empire as set forth by Augustus in the 1st century would be familiar, but the idea of hereditary power would be an unfamiliar concept (after Nero, there weren't that many multi-generational dynasties ruling Rome in which the younger generations were related by blood rather than by adoption, at least in the Western Empire).

As for Egypt... the time of the pyramid builders was an ancient to the people of Antony & Cleopatra's time as Cleopatra's time is to us.

Nice! Thanks for that excellent observation. Whenever I play along with Jeopardy at home, I get utterly crushed by anything regarding "ancient" civilizations, particularly Egypt. I appreciate the info.

Amanda was in the Animated Series episode "Yesteryear." I do not give any fraction of a damn what anyone says about official canon. That episode had enough going for it that it deserved to have been part of the live action series, and it's a shame it wasn't written sooner.

She was also in the fourth movie, helping to guide Spock through his re-training, and had to explain the question "How do you feel?".

I think we've interacted with each other enough on the TOS forum that I can legit ask - you didn’t actually think I didn't know those things, did you? I consider TAS canon as well, by the way. I was confining my remarks to Spock's preposterously inconsistent portrayal by the writers of TOS (1966-1969). I actually thought *both* TAS and the movies depicted him far more constantly - the latter probably due to Leonard Nimoy's growing presence behind the scenes.

Part of Spock's education was overlooked. He had no idea what "Oochy-woochy coochy-coo" meant, after all.

Ha! Good point. He was also a breathless, cringeworthy n00b regarding Kirk's "gambling" in "Patterns of Force." And there are many many many other examples in which the TOS writers couldn’t figure out whether he was an oft-dismissive know-nothing about Earth or an appreciative, walking Wikipedia on the subject. And don't even get me started on whether he was a skilled starship commander (like Kirk and Scotty) or someone who couldn't find his way to the captain's chair with three tricorders.

To circle back to Tuvok and Voyager, for all the guff the VOY writers get for their treatment of the "secondary" characters, I thought their handling of Tuvok was rock-solid. And massive credit is almost certainly due to Tim Russ for that as well, and of course to Leonard Nimoy for blazing the Vulcan trail and giving us a wonderful, timeless character despite the TOS writers' Spockian misadventures. (I also thought Blalock was similarly excellent on Enterprise.)

 

[fireproof78]

To circle back to Tuvok and Voyager, for all the guff the VOY writers get for their treatment of the "secondary" characters, I thought their handling of Tuvok was rock-solid. And massive credit is almost certainly due to Tim Russ for that as well, and of course to Leonard Nimoy for blazing the Vulcan trail and giving us a wonderful, timeless character despite the TOS writers' Spockian misadventures

Yes, one of the best Vulcan performances since Nimoy.

 

[Timewalker]

No doubt, although the Vulcans had quite a violent history themselves, leading to their core principles of logic and peace. And if Tuvok wasn't interested in Earth lit for the reason you supplied, Spock shouldn't have been either . . . .

Tuvok didn't have a human mother who happened to be a teacher. Not that formal teaching credentials would have been necessary, of course, but they do make it more plausible that Amanda was determined that Spock should learn about Earth culture as well.

Good call on Janeway wanting to provide the Bronte-Austen youngsters with some STEM. I loved, loved, loved that she was a science officer. Also, I think Neelix had a role in Naomi's education as well. And let's not forget her mother.

I am trying and failing to remember any scenes in which Sam Wildman taught Naomi anything, other than reminding her about manners.

Nice! Thanks for that excellent observation. Whenever I play along with Jeopardy at home, I get utterly crushed by anything regarding "ancient" civilizations, particularly Egypt. I appreciate the info.

Egypt is fascinating (no pun intended). The ruins and other sites we know about now are such a faint shadow of what they were like when they were new and current, all those millennia ago. Realizing that they had their own concepts of "ancient history" helps put things in perspective now, I think. It's like that for Rome, as well. By the time of the Emperors, the concept of Rome as a major power in the world was already over 700 years old. The Western Empire lasted almost 500 years more, and the Eastern Empire (the part we know more by the term "Byzantine Empire") lasted nearly another 1000 years (fell in 1453 CE).

Robert Silverberg wrote a book called Roma Eterna. It's about how different history could have been if Rome hadn't fallen. One rather cool thing I remember was when the Romans finally 'discovered' North America and sent an expedition. They were so sure they were going to be successful in dealing with the Aztecs. What they hadn't counted on was the Vikings getting there first.

I think we've interacted with each other enough on the TOS forum that I can legit ask - you didn’t actually think I didn't know those things, did you? I consider TAS canon as well, by the way. I was confining my remarks to Spock's preposterously inconsistent portrayal by the writers of TOS (1966-1969). I actually thought *both* TAS and the movies depicted him far more constantly - the latter probably due to Leonard Nimoy's growing presence behind the scenes.

Sorry. I just really get into some topics and my posts should be considered as being addressed in general to everyone who might wander by and read the thread.

Ha! Good point. He was also a breathless, cringeworthy n00b regarding Kirk's "gambling" in "Patterns of Force." And there are many many many other examples in which the TOS writers couldn’t figure out whether he was an oft-dismissive know-nothing about Earth or an appreciative, walking Wikipedia on the subject. And don't even get me started on whether he was a skilled starship commander (like Kirk and Scotty) or someone who couldn't find his way to the captain's chair with three tricorders.

A lot of Spock's knowledge about Earth is intellectual, just dry facts he read, or something he was assigned to learn and wasn't interested in it for its own sake. Of course Spock can't help comparing and contrasting between the two cultures.

To circle back to Tuvok and Voyager, for all the guff the VOY writers get for their treatment of the "secondary" characters, I thought their handling of Tuvok was rock-solid. And massive credit is almost certainly due to Tim Russ for that as well, and of course to Leonard Nimoy for blazing the Vulcan trail and giving us a wonderful, timeless character despite the TOS writers' Spockian misadventures. (I also thought Blalock was similarly excellent on Enterprise.)

It took me awhile to appreciate Tuvok. My favorite Voyager characters are Tom, Harry, and Seven.

 

[at Quark's]

"Ancient", if you're not interacting with professional historians, is subjective. I've noticed this with my interactions on various online forums and FB. Anything that happened pre-internet tends to be considered "ancient" and unrelateable, unless you were born in the early 1980s or before. I've actually witnessed someone being confronted with a rotary dial phone and having no idea how to use it.

Of course the term is very context dependent. A 1960's computer could well be called 'ancient' given the huge differences between the state of the technology back then and today's technology. A 1960's book is anything but ancient in my eyes. And it's not only subject dependent, but also culture dependent. I'm from a country where a building from 1600 is old, but not spectacularly so, whereas it might well be regarded 'ancient' in the US (according to the paradigm that to the average European, 100 miles is a long distance, and to the average American, 100 years is a long time). And I've been in countries where there was lots of stuff around I'd call 'spectacularly old' but just run-of-the-mill to the people living there.

Even so, I think I use the term 'ancient' in the most general sense roughly synonymous up to where Western Antiquity ends (around 500 or so), but I'm well aware that's just a convention. Not quite sure what the 'professional historian' definition is, though.

 

[Timewalker]

Of course the term is very context dependent. A 1960's computer could well be called 'ancient' given the huge differences between the state of the technology back then and today's technology. A 1960's book is anything but ancient in my eyes. And it's not only subject dependent, but also culture dependent. I'm from a country where a building from 1600 is old, but not spectacularly so, whereas it might well be regarded 'ancient' in the US (according to the paradigm that to the average European, 100 miles is a long distance, and to the average American, 100 years is a long time). And I've been in countries where there was lots of stuff around I'd call 'spectacularly old' but just run-of-the-mill to the people living there.

Never mind computers; there are computer games that are considered ancient simply because they don't run well (or at all) on any system later than XP. That's rendered quite a few of my old favorites unplayable.

I'm not American. I live in a region of Canada where the oldest buildings are from the 1800s (okay, maybe there might be a fort or two from earlier, if they were old trading posts).

100 miles is 10 miles farther than the distance to the next large city. It's a daily commute that some people make because overall it's cheaper to live here and commute than it is to pay rent/property tax in the larger cities.

We don't have buses anymore that travel between cities, and passenger train service is an expensive luxury for tourists (in this part of the country). My city doesn't even have a train station anymore, since the tracks were relocated out of town decades ago. So for people like me, who don't drive, 100 miles is close as distances are normally reckoned here for drivers, but for people like me, the next city may as well be on the Moon.

Even so, I think I use the term 'ancient' in the most general sense roughly synonymous up to where Western Antiquity ends (around 500 or so), but I'm well aware that's just a convention.

500 CE, I assume?

 

[at Quark's]

^Roughly, yes. (I'd have specified "500 BCE" otherwise.)

 

[fireproof78]

Even so, I think I use the term 'ancient' in the most general sense roughly synonymous up to where Western Antiquity ends (around 500 or so), but I'm well aware that's just a convention. Not quite sure what the 'professional historian' definition is, though.

Ancient is just colloquium for old. I'm called "ancient" by teens I work with and I'm not even 40.

 

[Kor]

It's just how they talk. 1870's Deadwood is called the "Ancient West" on TNG as well.

This was the first thing I thought of as well, when I saw this topic.

Kor

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Part of Spock's education was overlooked. He had no idea what "Oochy-woochy coochy-coo" meant, after all.

Having little to no experience with babies. Maybe if he'd had a little brother or sister, he might have known.

So anything is "ancient" if it happens prior to a cultural watershed moment (namely, First Contact)?

 

[Timewalker]

Having little to no experience with babies. Maybe if he'd had a little brother or sister, he might have known.

I can just imagine Sarek's reaction if Amanda had spoken baby babble to Spock or any other kid they'd had. I don't think he'd have allowed it.

So anything is "ancient" if it happens prior to a cultural watershed moment (namely, First Contact)?

That seems to be the general attitude of the 24th century characters. The 23rd century characters tend to use the term "Old Earth", rather than "ancient."

But then Janeway tends to act like the TOS Enterprise crew were barbarians with no sense of ethics or discipline, and doesn't have the self-awareness to understand that she's much more like Kirk than she'd ever want to admit (starting with the number of temporal violations, not to mention how many times she blew up her ship).

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Ancient is relative.

 

[Timewalker]

That's already been mentioned.

 

[Ragitsu]

When the N.H.S. was the envy of the world.

 

[at Quark's]

Ancient is just colloquium for old. I'm called "ancient" by teens I work with and I'm not even 40.

I know. I simply wouldn't use it that way myself (except as a joke). Much like I probably wouldn't say 'I hate mondays!' either when I really mean I simply don't like the weekend being over. I prefer to say what I mean and to not use hyperbole without cause.

 

[Phaser Two]

I am trying and failing to remember any scenes in which Sam Wildman taught Naomi anything, other than reminding her about manners.

Oh, for sure, and I think that's right. I might have said "Let’s not forget her mother - the writers sure did, NUR HUR HUR, " but I usually forgive certain things on Voyager that are clearly the result of unavoidable production realities, like having nine principal characters and thus less time for apperances by guests. That's in contrast to (e.g.) the TOS writers' breezy weekly shift on Spock's attitude and knowledge level, which could have been more firm without changing anything but dialogue.

Back to your point, again, I agree - but I was just assuming that Sam taught Naomi all the time offscreen. And despite what I just wrote above, a few more or different lines of dialogue from Seven mentioning that would have been welcome and cost little or nothing. The TOS "Spock of the week" deal was just far more glaring, so I find it much, much harder to handwave.

Egypt is fascinating (no pun intended). The ruins and other sites we know about now are such a faint shadow of what they were like when they were new and current, all those millennia ago. Realizing that they had their own concepts of "ancient history" helps put things in perspective now, I think. It's like that for Rome, as well. By the time of the Emperors, the concept of Rome as a major power in the world was already over 700 years old. The Western Empire lasted almost 500 years more, and the Eastern Empire (the part we know more by the term "Byzantine Empire") lasted nearly another 1000 years (fell in 1453 CE).

Robert Silverberg wrote a book called Roma Eterna. It's about how different history could have been if Rome hadn't fallen. One rather cool thing I remember was when the Romans finally 'discovered' North America and sent an expedition. They were so sure they were going to be successful in dealing with the Aztecs. What they hadn't counted on was the Vikings getting there first.

Awesome. Roma Eterna - thanks so much for that. Sounds wonderful.

Sorry. I just really get into some topics and my posts should be considered as being addressed in general to everyone who might wander by and read the thread.

Thanks and no apology needed, of course. Your approach is quite inclusive and . . . logical.

It took me awhile to appreciate Tuvok. My favorite Voyager characters are Tom, Harry, and Seven.

Ah, we may have some additional tastes in common; those are my three of my four faves as well, adding in Janeway. But I do like them all despite occasional struggles with Neelix - which incidentally had nothing to do with Ethan Phillips.

 

[Summer Solstice]

It seems to have elements of Wuthering Heights, Northanger Abbey and (principally IMO) Jane Eyre. Not that I know anything about these books mind you.

I thought of it like an escape room. And like you, I considered it a problem-solving exercise for a science-officer-turned-captain.

@Ragitsu - I always liked Tuvok's confusion over Beowulf because Spock's vast, in-depth knowledge of seemingly all Earth history and literature never really connected with me. Perhaps security-minded Vulcans 100 years after TOS weren't as well-read in all things Earth.

As for the "ancient" thing, given the development of warp drive, the transporter, phasers, subspace radio, deflector shields (which have a case to be made as the most life-changing development of all planetside) - and oh, yes, the holodeck through which Janeway is experiencing the story to which she refers - I have no problem with her word choice.

I think Beowulf is ancient, so maybe anything more than 1000 years ago is ancient?

I think Spock had more interest in his human side than he cared to admit.

I wish we knew more about Tuvok's parents. Along with Neelix, they were the only cast members whose parents we had never seen. Tuvok's father was quite adamant that he join Starfleet, and he was in some kind of program with non Vulcans as a child. They implied Tuvok's father may have been an important person, perhaps not as much as Sarek but still important.

But his father's attitude probably made him "rebel" along with the incident where he had to go and see that monk.

Did we see Tuvok's father in the flashbacks in "Gravity"?

 

[fireproof78]

I know. I simply wouldn't use it that way myself (except as a joke). Much like I probably wouldn't say 'I hate mondays!' either when I really mean I simply don't like the weekend being over. I prefer to say what I mean and to not use hyperbole without cause.

Hyperbole is always fun (see what I did there).

I do prefer precision in language if communicating about something serious. Age is not something I take seriously.