"Ancient England"

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Cathexis:

Janeway: Captain's log, stardate 48734.2. Sometimes it's a good idea to get away from being a Captain for a while. To that end, I've started participating in a new holonovel. The setting is ancient England.

The "setting" is a Victorian Gothic holonovel which would put it early 1800's.

Voy begins in 2371, so 350 years into our future. We don't refer to the England of the 18nth and 19nth centuries as "ancient". Google says "ancient" history extends to 650 or 750 AD.

Though we are far from life in 1800 it's still relatable and the literature of the time is still read and enjoyed with no need for translation. What developments would have made this era be ancient england to Janeway? Is it just the pre-warp era?

 

[Oddish]

It's just how they talk. 1870's Deadwood is called the "Ancient West" on TNG as well.

 

[Lynx]

When this issue is discussed, I've often read that Janeway's holo-novel was based on Emily Brontë's "Wuthering Heights" but what I can remember, there was no Lord Burleigh in that one.

In fact, I found Janeway's holo-novel more spooky than Emily Brontë's story. We had the creepy Lord Burleigh, the also creepy mrs. Templeton, the obnoxious children, Janeway herself as a rather obedient governess and the whole mysterious thing with Lord Burleigh's wife who was supposed to be dead, not allowed to discuss and it was also forbidden to go to the fourth floor of the house.

In fact, the whole thing looks more like a horror novel by Edgar Allan Poe than a book by Emily Brontë.

A pity that we never were allowed to find out what was going on in that house and also sad that it wasn't taken from a real book. I would have loved to read about the creepy Lord Burleigh and what he was hiding. Did he hold his wife chained in a cell on the fourth florr or nailed to the floor (like in that scary episode of The X-files) or whatever? And why?

Janeway's role surprises me. The powerful captain of Voyager takes part in a holo-novel where she is an obedient servant back in times where there were no technology at all, a clear contrast to her daily life.

Does it reflect a divided personality or did Janeway simply like to relax by becoming something totally opposiote her normal life?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

In The 37's:

JANEWAY: Commander, apprise the Doctor of our situation. Tell him to instruct Kes in the proper procedure for reviving someone from cryostasis. She can be made to look human easily enough. In the meantime I suggest we all brush up on ancient Earth. We're about to meet a bit of our history.

So yeah, I guess that's how they talked. It just interested me because I wouldn't refer to the 1500's as "ancient".

 

[Guy Gardener]

We assumed that all digital history was lost during the decades long dark ages called world war 3, which is why Movie Night on Enterprise was (almost) always Black and White movies.

However...

In the new history, there were no darkages.

Christobell was left to run a bar in the past, where he didn't have any problems, that we know about, keeping his beer cold.

Also "Old Britain" from The Trouble with Tribbles.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

When this issue is discussed, I've often read that Janeway's holo-novel was based on Emily Brontë's "Wuthering Heights" but what I can remember, there was no Lord Burleigh in that one.

In fact, I found Janeway's holo-novel more spooky than Emily Brontë's story. We had the creepy Lord Burleigh, the also creepy mrs. Templeton, the obnoxious children, Janeway herself as a rather obedient governess and the whole mysterious thing with Lord Burleigh's wife who was supposed to be dead, not allowed to discuss and it was also forbidden to go to the fourth floor of the house.

In fact, the whole thing looks more like a horror novel by Edgar Allan Poe than a book by Emily Brontë.

Gothic novels were very popular then and varying tropes and dramatic bits made their way into other fiction, see Jane Eyre by Charlotte Bronte which had a mad wife locked up in an attic. Jane Austen wrote a novel that satirized the genre called Northanger Abbey. So it was very much of the times.

Janeway's role surprises me. The powerful captain of Voyager takes part in a holo-novel where she is an obedient servant back in times where there were no technology at all, a clear contrast to her daily life.

Does it reflect a divided personality or did Janeway simply like to relax by becoming something totally opposiote her normal life?

Yes the whole time I'm watching her on the holodeck I'm thinking.. how is this fun?

I do think it engages her love of diplomacy and winning people over, so there's that.

 

[at Quark's]

It's fairly subjective of course. In my own usage, generally speaking 'ancient' can cover everything before the Middle Ages (starting at around 500 or so).

For Janeway, the early 1800's would be around 550 years into her past (so perhaps equivalent in feeling of remoteness to what to us perhaps would be the late 15th century, say the time Europe started their great exploratory voyages). But perhaps to these people anything pre-warp, or perhaps even pre-federation is labeled 'ancient'.

Janeway's role surprises me. The powerful captain of Voyager takes part in a holo-novel where she is an obedient servant back in times where there were no technology at all, a clear contrast to her daily life.

Does it reflect a divided personality or did Janeway simply like to relax by becoming something totally opposiote her normal life?

Doesn't this happen in real life, too? I've heard several stories about people that have high and responsible positions where they have the final say in many matters that play out 'submissive' phantasies in their private life? (Not suggesting that there's anything sexual to Janeway's holonovel, simply that this 'personality split' isn't that far-fetched in my opinion.)

 

[Ragitsu]

From "Heroes and Demons" ->

CHAKOTAY: Computer, identify programme.
COMPUTER: The programme in progress is a holonovel based on the epic Earth poem Beowulf.
TUVOK: Beowulf?
CHAKOTAY: An ancient English epic, set in sixth century Denmark, if I remember correctly. It's about a hero named Beowulf who fights a creature that's terrorising a kingdom and murdering its subjects. Monsters and swordplay. That sort of thing.

 

[Phaser Two]

When this issue is discussed, I've often read that Janeway's holo-novel was based on Emily Brontë's "Wuthering Heights" but what I can remember, there was no Lord Burleigh in that one.

It seems to have elements of Wuthering Heights, Northanger Abbey and (principally IMO) Jane Eyre. Not that I know anything about these books mind you.

Yes the whole time I'm watching her on the holodeck I'm thinking.. how is this fun?

I thought of it like an escape room. And like you, I considered it a problem-solving exercise for a science-officer-turned-captain.

@Ragitsu - I always liked Tuvok's confusion over Beowulf because Spock's vast, in-depth knowledge of seemingly all Earth history and literature never really connected with me. Perhaps security-minded Vulcans 100 years after TOS weren't as well-read in all things Earth.

As for the "ancient" thing, given the development of warp drive, the transporter, phasers, subspace radio, deflector shields (which have a case to be made as the most life-changing development of all planetside) - and oh, yes, the holodeck through which Janeway is experiencing the story to which she refers - I have no problem with her word choice.

 

[Finn]

They ought have some of the 32nd Century folks on Discovery describe Voyager as an ancient starship, aboard Discovery...a ship that disappeared over a century before Voyager....

 

[BK613]

As for the "ancient" thing, given the development of warp drive, the transporter, phasers, subspace radio, deflector shields (which have a case to be made as the most life-changing development of all planetside) - and oh, yes, the holodeck through which Janeway is experiencing the story to which she refers - I have no problem with her word choice.

Probably more basic than that. To a space-faring culture, everything post pre-Sputnik would be 'ancient', I bet.
(Or post pre-first contact, if Sputnik seems to soon to folks.)

edit: incorrect prefix

 

[Finn]

When did we start seeing Ancient Egypt, Rome and Greece as ancient? Was it during the Renaissance or the Industrial Revolution or what?

 

[Lynx]

It seems to have elements of Wuthering Heights, Northanger Abbey and (principally IMO) Jane Eyre. Not that I know anything about these books mind you.



I thought of it like an escape room. And like you, I considered it a problem-solving exercise for a science-officer-turned-captain.

@Ragitsu - I always liked Tuvok's confusion over Beowulf because Spock's vast, in-depth knowledge of seemingly all Earth history and literature never really connected with me. Perhaps security-minded Vulcans 100 years after TOS weren't as well-read in all things Earth.

As for the "ancient" thing, given the development of warp drive, the transporter, phasers, subspace radio, deflector shields (which have a case to be made as the most life-changing development of all planetside) - and oh, yes, the holodeck through which Janeway is experiencing the story to which she refers - I have no problem with her word choice.

I actually read "Wutheing Heights" some years ago because I wanted to find out what the Burleigh family secrets were. The book was OK but no Burleigh! That made me disappointed.

As for Spock, he was half-human and half-Vulcan which may have inspired him to read ancient human stories. Tuvok on the other hand left Starfleet and spent many years at some monastery on Vulcan so I don't think that he was interested in human literature.

 

[Phaser Two]

I actually read "Wutheing Heights" some years ago because I wanted to find out what the Burleigh family secrets were. The book was OK but no Burleigh! That made me disappointed.

As for Spock, he was half-human and half-Vulcan which may have inspired him to read ancient human stories. Tuvok on the other hand left Starfleet and spent many years at some monastery on Vulcan so I don't think that he was interested in human literature.

If you've never read Northanger Abbey I'd recommend it. It's basically a sendup of Gothic lit, from a contemporary of the genre no less. Quite interesting.

That's a very good point about Tuvok. As for Spock, it does make sense that Amanda would have taught him about Earth culture; I really do like that idea. But then you have so few references to her during the series other than the ep in which she does appear, even after its events, and soooooooooo many references to Spock not wanting to become human and considering it an insult to be deemed more human, etc. I know some of that was to needle McCoy and even Kirk, but still. Spock's inconsistent writing really bugs me. Kirk and Scotty are depicted so much more constantly. McCoy is, like Spock, all over the place, but the writers' week-to-week take on Spock is something that troubles me to this day about my very favorite show. I suspect many frequenters of this forum (for my second-favorite show) feel the same way about Janeway.

 

[Ragitsu]

@Ragitsu - I always liked Tuvok's confusion over Beowulf because Spock's vast, in-depth knowledge of seemingly all Earth history and literature never really connected with me. Perhaps security-minded Vulcans 100 years after TOS weren't as well-read in all things Earth.

There are some key differences between the two ->

Spock was half-Human and, despite protestations to the contrary, behaved very much Human. He probably had interests in Human culture (if for no other reason than he traveled on the flagship of The Federation...a vessel packed with Humans). Spock was also something of a polymath, even by Vulcan standards.

Tuvok was fully Vulcan; he had no interest in emulating humanity. Furthermore, for a time, he actually disliked (if not outright detested) Humans to the point where he resigned from Starfleet for several decades. Tuvok is broadly intelligent, but he remained focused on matters of security.

 

[Finn]

There are some key differences between the two ->

Spock was half-Human and, despite protestations to the contrary, behaved very much Human. He probably had interests in Human culture (if for no other reason than he traveled on the flagship of The Federation...a vessel packed with Humans). Spock was also something of a polymath, even by Vulcan standards.

Tuvok was fully Vulcan; he had no interest in emulating humanity. Furthermore, for a time, he actually disliked (if not outright detested) Humans to the point where he resigned from Starfleet for several decades. Tuvok is broadly intelligent, but he remained focused on matters of security.

I wish we knew more about Tuvok's parents. Along with Neelix, they were the only cast members whose parents we had never seen. Tuvok's father was quite adamant that he join Starfleet, and he was in some kind of program with non Vulcans as a child. They implied Tuvok's father may have been an important person, perhaps not as much as Sarek but still important.

But his father's attitude probably made him "rebel" along with the incident where he had to go and see that monk.

 

[fireproof78]

It's just how they talk. 1870's Deadwood is called the "Ancient West" on TNG as well.

And French was called "obscure. "

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[Phaser Two]

There are some key differences between the two ->

Spock was half-Human and, despite protestations to the contrary, behaved very much Human. He probably had interests in Human culture (if for no other reason than he traveled on the flagship of The Federation...a vessel packed with Humans). Spock was also something of a polymath, even by Vulcan standards.

Tuvok was fully Vulcan; he had no interest in emulating humanity. Furthermore, for a time, he actually disliked (if not outright detested) Humans to the point where he resigned from Starfleet for several decades. Tuvok is broadly intelligent, but he remained focused on matters of security.

Well said. Perhaps I should have made my point more broadly, saying that it was refreshing to have a consistently-written Vulcan, and not one who was a surpassing Earth expert - down to encyclopedic knowledge of seemingly every Earth event and cultural phenomenon . . . but also depending on the week. I love TOS and Spock, but the TOS writers were all over the map with how to express "Spock = smart" and it didn’t always land, to put it mildly. In the best TOS eps, or in my favorites? Oh yeah. In others? Nah.

I wish we knew more about Tuvok's parents. Along with Neelix, they were the only cast members whose parents we had never seen. Tuvok's father was quite adamant that he join Starfleet, and he was in some kind of program with non Vulcans as a child. They implied Tuvok's father may have been an important person, perhaps not as much as Sarek but still important.

But his father's attitude probably made him "rebel" along with the incident where he had to go and see that monk.

Nice and agreed. By the way, is "Coda" the only time we see either of Janeway's parents? I guess she did believe it was her father at first, so it counts.

 

[Finn]

Yes, We never see her mother- she was mentioned when they first handed out those isolinear chips for the 30 day calls.

 

[FederationHistorian]

Pre-first contact Earth is considered ancient in general in VOY. I do not think its about England specifically.