An unsolved mystery

Discussion in 'Doctor Who' started by TemporalFlux, Jan 18, 2014.

  1. TemporalFlux

    TemporalFlux Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Possible Spoilers, I suppose.





    So if the Matt Smith Doctor believed he was the last Doctor, then the Capaldi Doctor was not part of his plan to save Gallifrey in "Day of the Doctor". If the Capaldi Doctor was not necessary, then why was he there?

    The Capaldi era looks to start with memory problems (like has happened before after regeneration), but what if these memory problems are stretched out a bit. Could it be that the Matt Smith Doctor figured out something else he could have done to save Gallifrey during his time on Trenzalore? The Matt Smith Doctor would have thought he would never have a chance to implement it; but now he can through Capaldi. The problem is that Capaldi doesn't remember.

    I think it could be fun to see the Capaldi Doctor with a bit of a personality disorder as he slowly remembers each past incarnation of himself. With a 13 episode series, Capaldi could have one episode devoted to an adventure related to each Doctor until he finally makes his way to the Matt Smith revelation in episode 11. Then a two part finale implements the revised plan that brings Capaldi into the resolution of "Day of the Doctor".
     
  2. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    The out-of-the-box reason is to hide the fact that Matt Smith is the final incarnation of the Doctor so that it's a surprise in the Christmas special when the Doctor gets a new regeneration cycle.

    In-the-box, perhaps this explanation will work:

    The Doctor knew that 13 Doctors showed up to save Gallifrey. The eleventh Doctor may have assumed, because he didn't actually see the Capaldi incarnation for whatever reason (busy, no communication link, what have you), that the thirteen included both incarnations of the tenth Doctor. And since the previous Doctors conveniently forget this event, the eleventh Doctor never realizes that one of his future incarnations unexpectedly showed up.

    Then you get into the question of why a future Doctor showed up.

    Perhaps the calculation did require thirteen TARDISes to be present.

    Or perhaps the Capaldi Doctor showed up as part of his plan to rescue Gallifrey from the painting and he wasn't there to be part of the calculation at all. Smith's Doctor didn't know that Gallifrey was safe until after it had been saved, so he might not have taken the readings the Doctor would need to find the planet. So Capaldi's Doctor slips back to Gallifrey's final moments, takes the readings he needs, and everyone else assumes that he's there to lock the planet in the painting as part of the three Doctors' plan.

    Perhaps in 2015, for the tenth anniversary of the new series, we'll get the flipside episode to "The Day of the Doctor," showing us the events from the Capaldi Doctor's perspective. That might make a good Easter special -- "The Resurrection of Gallifrey." :)
     
  3. Stevil2001

    Stevil2001 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    One should point out that the seventh Doctor was there twice, as we see him in both his sweater vest and his TVM outfit.
     
  4. Alidar Jarok

    Alidar Jarok Everything in moderation but moderation Moderator

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    Maybe Capaldi showed up because he thought it would be fun. It's not clear whether Matt Smith's version would remember him, though, what with the timelines being out of sync
     
  5. The Wormhole

    The Wormhole Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Of course, the Eleventh Doctor might not even have known Capaldi was there. The only ones who noted a thirteenth TARDIS were the General and his Time Lord friend.
     
  6. YellowSubmarine

    YellowSubmarine Vice Admiral Admiral

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    For a moment I thought there were way more than 13 TARDISes there, so I assumed every Doctor was there twice. I didn't count though.
     
  7. Candlelight

    Candlelight Admiral Admiral

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    Funny, considering it should've been Tennant who should be there twice.
     
  8. YellowSubmarine

    YellowSubmarine Vice Admiral Admiral

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    No reason for it. I don't see why regeneration boundaries should have significant importance over one's presence there. The Doctor just came from multiple points in his life. And perhaps ten was there four times. ;)
     
  9. Photoman15

    Photoman15 Commodore Commodore

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    There is no second incarnation of 10. He stayed in the same body. Meta-10 is something else.
     
  10. Candlelight

    Candlelight Admiral Admiral

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    13 tardises implied 13 incarnations. Biologically speaking capaldi would've been 13 at that stage, but then Moffat changed his mind again the following episode so capaldi became 14 (or 2.01) and Tennant was represented twice, by the pre- and post-stolen earth regeneration versions.

    As day of the doctor stages however, it's implied tennent was only represented once during the final battle.
     
  11. Allyn Gibson

    Allyn Gibson Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I wasn't counting Meta-10. :)
     
  12. Csalem

    Csalem Commodore Commodore

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    Well all the Doctors spoke to the command centre except Capaldi's so maybe Smith's was too busy to notice.
     
  13. CmndrSela318

    CmndrSela318 [Carolyn] Trek BBS Commander Number 318. Red Shirt

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    I read on a website where Steven Moffat said Matt Smith's Doctor was #13. He said Meta-10 with one heart and no regenerating power and John Hurt's forgotten/ignored incarnation the War Doctor both count as incarnations of The Doctor, thus making Matt Smith's doctor #13. If you'll go back and watch that episode where Meta-10 was created, you'll see Meta-10 was created using leftover regenerating power 10 didn't use.
    Anyway, here's a link to that site.
    http://www.starburstmagazine.com/tv...tt-smith-is-13th-doctor-peter-capaldi-is-14th

    Here's a quote from part of that article:
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2016
  14. Candlelight

    Candlelight Admiral Admiral

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    In The Time of the Doctor he mentions something along the lines of '10 regenerated but stayed the same, he had image issues back then' or something like that, I can't remember the exact quote.

    But either way Tennant played two incarnations. I don't consider the Rose-sex-buddy Doctor to be a proper incarnation.
     
  15. CmndrSela318

    CmndrSela318 [Carolyn] Trek BBS Commander Number 318. Red Shirt

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    I just had a thought. If John Hurt's War Doctor falls in the line up where I think he does, then Chris Eccleston is 10, David Tennant is 11, David Tennant one heart Meta-Doctor is 12 and Matt Smith is unlucky 13. That would make Peter Capaldi 14. Or 1A since he's the first Doctor of the new set of regenerations the Doctor was given in Time Of The Doctor.
     
  16. Ar-Pharazon

    Ar-Pharazon Admiral Premium Member

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    Meta-10 was just the result of 10 staying the same and sending the regenergy into the hand. So he wasn't the incarnation 11 was referring to.
     
  17. Photoman15

    Photoman15 Commodore Commodore

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    One heart meta doctor is NOT an incarnation (that used up a regen). 10 regenned and KEPT his face and body. That is 11 (and it turns out to be 12 when War Doctor is counted as 9).

    This is what Moffat said, this is the word of Moffat.
     
  18. Candlelight

    Candlelight Admiral Admiral

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    ???

    Yes, that's exactly the way it is.

    There are three line ups depending on where you are at with the last three episodes:

    Before The Name of the Doctor:

    1.01. Hartnell
    1.02. Troughton
    1.03. Pertwee
    1.04. T Baker
    1.05. Davison
    1.06. C Baker
    1.07. McCoy
    1.08. McGann
    1.09. Eccleston
    1.10. Tennant
    1.11. Smith
    1.12. Capaldi
    1.13. NOT YET CAST

    The Day of the Doctor

    1.01. Hartnell
    1.02. Troughton
    1.03. Pertwee
    1.04. T Baker
    1.05. Davison
    1.06. C Baker
    1.07. McCoy
    1.08. McGann
    1.09. Hurt
    1.10. Eccleston
    1.11. Tennant
    1.12. Smith
    1.13. Capaldi

    The Time of the Doctor onwards:

    1.01. Hartnell
    1.02. Troughton
    1.03. Pertwee
    1.04. T Baker
    1.05. Davison
    1.06. C Baker
    1.07. McCoy
    1.08. McGann
    1.09. Hurt
    1.10. Eccleston
    1.11. Tennant
    1.12. Tennant
    1.13. Smith

    2.01. Capaldi
     
  19. Mark_Nguyen

    Mark_Nguyen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I think a lot of this was predicated on whether or not Chris Eccleston would have returned as the ninth Doctor in DOTD. I feel that Moffat's original pipe dream was to have him in the role that eventually became John Hurt's War Doctor - among things, this would have resonated far better with Billie Piper as a companion he hadn't met yet. If that had happened, then Capaldi would have indeed been the Thirteenth (incarnation of the Time Lord who generally calls himself the) Doctor, smoothing out the dialogue at the end and again resonating well with "EVERY SINGLE DOCTOR BEING THERE" to save Gallifrey at the end.

    But since that didn't happen, they shoehorned John Hurt into the timeline (a wise choice - as awesome as Paul McGann is, I prefer what we got over the other logical option of using him as the Time War Doctor) and Moffat left figuring out the incarnation stuff until Time of the Doctor, to get the end of the cycle out of the way on his watch and to check off one more box of things he wanted to address as a fan AND showrunner. There is ample evidence to suggest that Eleven thought he had at least one more regeneration to go (Let's Kill Hitler, Nightmare in Silver, etc.) and thus that Moffat hadn't gotten to addressing this yet.

    Personally, I think Eleven had simply lost track of his regenerations as much as he had his age; and that while sitting around Trenzalore for 300-900 years he'd had lots of time to look back on his life and realize that he was, in fact, on his last incarnation. That's what I'll be going with when these things will inevitably come up in the future.

    Mark
     
  20. The Badger

    The Badger Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Im in ur Tardis, violating ur canon.
    But then we have the business of Smith's Doctor starting to regenerate after River shot him in 'The Impossible Astronaut'. In the original flow of events, that WAS the Doctor. It was only after his younger self became aware of what was coming that he pulled the trick with the Tesselecta.