But you're making stuff up that wasn't part of the episode. Quite simply, Picard's reasoning as presented in the episode is just wrong.
To quote Lt. Commander Shelby, "If you can't make the big decisions..."
an empty death and an implausible survival
- Thread starter Captrek
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But you're making stuff up that wasn't part of the episode. Quite simply, Picard's reasoning as presented in the episode is just wrong.
To quote Lt. Commander Shelby, "If you can't make the big decisions..."
Dying to avoid capture isn’t about Klingon codes of honor. It’s about not wanting to risk the Romulans getting ahold of knowledge of military technology from 22 years in the future.
Poor analogy. The United States has a concept of borders, even if our 43rd President may have been a little fuzzy on the concept. The Borg have no sense of borders and no interest in negotiating treaties to draw up borders. They’re just going to assimilate and assimilate until they have assimilated the whole galaxy if somebody doesn’t stop them. Neither the Federation nor anybody the Federation is aware of has anywhere near the military strength needed to have a chance against the Borg in a conventional war. If you have a chance to take them out, you take your shot.
He states on another occasion that what he learned from his experience is that if you kill a Borg you’re doing it a favor, so the mercy exhibited in “I, Borg” is misplaced at best.
Picard's statement about killing a Borg as mercy was directed at those who were assimilated people, not the ones who were basically born Borg like Hugh was. Picard's reasoning for not using Hugh, who was basically an innocent guy, as a tool for genocide still works. My argument over how it's good in big picture terms also still stands.
But... the Borg were using him as a tool for genocide against hundreds of worlds.
Look, if somebody walks into a McDonald’s armed to the teeth and starts shooting everybody there and you have an opportunity to put a bullet between his eyes, you do it, especially if you’re wearing a uniform that represents the oath you took to protect the people. You don’t feel good about taking a life. The shooter’s probably not a bad guy, he probably just went crazy. But by failing to take action against him you condemn others to death.
Of the three female characters (leaving aside the relative competence of the actresses), I always thought that Yar was the most... progressive. Crusher is a doctor, and one therefore presumes highly educated, and she does go on to achieve the rank of commander. But she has IMO a fairly predictable and uninteresting personality, and she isn't developed as thoroughly as she might have been. Troi is almost not worth talking about, most of her character development is done in the context of her romantic entanglements, and her presence on the bridge is little more than interior decoration- she's a glorified psychologist and belongs in her office.
But Yar (who's character was admittedly somewhat one-dimensional) was a female character who had some spunk. She was the chief security officer, and she was competent and professional. She was attractive, but not overly so, and was clearly not intended as intergalactic arm candy. Or nacel-candy....
I have therefore always been somewhat disappointed by her death and subsequent absence from the show, since no additional female characters were cultivated to provide a foil to Troi and Crusher.
And yes, I think her death was fairly Redshirt-like. But she was quitting on them, so maybe they were justified.
But Yar (who's character was admittedly somewhat one-dimensional) was a female character who had some spunk. She was the chief security officer, and she was competent and professional. She was attractive, but not overly so, and was clearly not intended as intergalactic arm candy. Or nacel-candy....
I have therefore always been somewhat disappointed by her death and subsequent absence from the show, since no additional female characters were cultivated to provide a foil to Troi and Crusher.
And yes, I think her death was fairly Redshirt-like. But she was quitting on them, so maybe they were justified.
Don't use logic or precedents from other episodes or movies. He's made up his own little fantasy.
I think "empty" describes it fairly well. Although, as Worf points out, it was also an honorable death. In truth, she died trying to get to Troi. (Now. No one jump in and say that's why it was an empty death!) But there was an emptiness to the way she was just swatted out of existence like a bug. She died like a Redshirt. No main cast member should go out like a redshirt. Although it was a nice memorial. And Data will always have his "special program".
Ah, but she didn't die just like a redshirt. Dr Crusher spent more time trying to save Yar's life than she spent trying to save everyone else she ever treated on the show put together, including the person she incorrectly diagnosed as dead.
I don't remember any protracted attemtps at saving Tasha. I remember it as smack! She's dead, Wil. The mechanics of the scene did go down a lot like a Redshirt death. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the original script had a generic security officer the one who gets killed. When Crosby opted out, they just transfered it to her.
But maybe there was more to it than I remember.
Wow, that’s a pretty good scene you have forgotten.
The death itself did go down pretty much as “smack, she’s dead.” Then Crusher beamed back to the Enterprise with the body and tried to revive her using some kind of electronic neural stimulation. Even after the other medical personnel were wearing expressions that said, “Give it up, Doc, she’s gone,” Crusher refused to accept defeat for a long time.
Well, it's been a while.
I remember that now. I still think her death was on the empty side. But when it aired, I thought the episode was pretty good. I was playing a lot of D&D then, so this kind of "realistic" death, meaning not scripted out heroically and over-the-top, and the suddeness of it, seemed pretty cool to me. It wasn't cliche, I'll give it that.
Actually, Kirk's death in GEN is similar, although he gets his final moments of consciousness on-screen. There was a similar grittiness and sudden element to it. Sometimes described as "empty".
Picard's decision to order his men to fire on assimilated crew members is indefensible. THERE Picard stands barking out orders. Was he not assimilated once? If he can be unassimilated then why can't they? Sure, there is no practical way to unassimilate them in the context of First Contact, but why didn't he say that? Why say he is doing them a favor when there he stands, proof assimilation does not have to be the end?
Genocide is nothing to play around with. The goal should be to FREE the assimilated, not kill trillions and trillions of lifeforms. That is the decision Picard went with, hoping Hugh's individuality would spread to the others, which it did in a limited way. Picard made the morally superior decision in I, Borg. Like it or not, the Federation does not attempt genocide. Every starfleet officer should be willing to give his life and even his individuality to uphold these values. Otherwise there'd be no difference between the Borg and mankind.
So they should give up their society? Just bow down and wait for the inevitable assimilation? Picard violated his oath to protect the Federation in a very real way in this episode. A much better take would have been him making the decision to use the weapon and have to live with himself afterward. Making a decision that served 'the greater good' but had a personal price.
Armus killed Tasha simply because he was toying with Troi.
Of course. And the goal should be to get the McDonald’s shooter to put down his guns and give up peacefully. Unfortunately, you have no way to accomplish that, and somebody else will get shot and killed every few seconds for as long as you hesitate to act.
The Borg commit genocide (or assimilate entire peoples, which is arguably even worse than killing them) routinely. You have to stop them, and if the only way to accomplish that is to kill them, so be it.
The McDonald's shooter is an individual who has control over his own actions. Members of the Collective do not. They are the victims of genocide, not the perpetrators. Understandably, most would argue that this is a special situation in which it is acceptable to take the low road. However, due to Gene Roddenberry's optimistic vision of a humanity with evolved senses of morals and values, the character makes the tough decision to resist an attempt at genocide, upholding his and the Federation's values. Making an attempt at genocide would NEVER save the Federation because once that happens, the Federation is already dead.
Picard's oath to protect the Federation includes upholding its values. He made the decision that if they are to live by these values, it is just as reasonable to die or be assimilated by them. No, you don't give up and bow down. You fight. You search for a way to win without betraying your values. The Borg need not assimilate a man who is willing to attempt genocide. He is already more Borg than they could make him.
The McDonald’s shooter is likely insane, so it’s open to question whether he “has control over his actions.”
The Borg drone does participate in the group decision to assimilate and destroy.
[*] Even Hugh at first expressed his approval of assimilation, although he later decided he didn’t want Geordi to be assimilated because Geordi didn’t want to be assimilated and Hugh had developed affection for him.
[* First Contact suggests that the Borg Queen makes the decisions and the drones obey her will, but the concept of the Queen came along well after “I Borg.” What was stated in “Q Who” was that decisions were made collectively by the drones.]
Oh, please. At worst we’re talking about a few individuals sacrificing their souls to save not only the Federation, but potentially the entire galaxy. Barring intervention from some virtually omnipotent being like Q or the guy from “The Survivors,” there is no known impediment to the Borg eventually assimilating the whole galaxy.
Wow. Not undertaking genocide is indefensible?
Edit: I see this has already been mentioned. Carry on.
What if Picard had a second chance?
In Chain of Command, Admiral Nechayev scolded Picard for his decision and told them that if another opportunity presented itself, he was under orders to eliminate the Borg. Picard said (more like yelled at her) “Yes, sir.”
If he had a second opportunity, would he keep his word and follow the order that he told Nechayev he would obey? Or was he lying to her so he could keep his command?
In Chain of Command, Admiral Nechayev scolded Picard for his decision and told them that if another opportunity presented itself, he was under orders to eliminate the Borg. Picard said (more like yelled at her) “Yes, sir.”
If he had a second opportunity, would he keep his word and follow the order that he told Nechayev he would obey? Or was he lying to her so he could keep his command?
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