My eighteen-year old daughter has loved these types of shows for years. I directly blame them for her majoring in Criminal Justice now. So I don't think its fair to say these shows only appeal to older folks.
An Anti-CBS PROGRAMMING rant (aks the House of Cards Network)
- Thread starter Mutara Nebula 1967
- Start date
My eighteen-year old daughter has loved these types of shows for years. I directly blame them for her majoring in Criminal Justice now. So I don't think its fair to say these shows only appeal to older folks.
Hey Christopher, I don't watch any of the shows you cited as good episodic shows.And that's probably because I don't care for the episodic format. Maybe there are good episodic series out there, but I'll bail on em anyway, assuming I check them out to begin with, which I usually don't.
It's like saying, this particular rhubarb pie is very good. Doesn't matter to me. Since I hate rhubarb and there's no such thing as "good" rhubarb.
I am checking out an episodic format series: Person of Interest. But I can already tell that I'll bail on it sooner or later unless they add a serialized element to it.
My comment is based on Neilsens stats that I've seen (if I notice them, I'll post them here), which should a definite trend towards aging in the audiences of the four major nets, to the point where their average age is outside the 18-49 target market or close to it, and CBS skews the oldest of all. CBS does the most cop shows. Maybe this is a coincidence, but I kind of doubt it.
What one person like your daughter does is not the issue. What counts is the data the networks and advertisers use to base their decisions on, because that will have a noticeable impact on the real world. CBS's advertisers are not going to ask your daughter's permission before they pull their ads. They base their decisions on date from thousands of Nielsens families (we all know this by now, right?)
CBS knows that their current lineup is attracting an audience that skews too old for their advertisers. They need to do something to change that and one obvious tactic is to change the type of shows they air. What else can they do?
It's like saying, this particular rhubarb pie is very good. Doesn't matter to me. Since I hate rhubarb and there's no such thing as "good" rhubarb.
I am checking out an episodic format series: Person of Interest. But I can already tell that I'll bail on it sooner or later unless they add a serialized element to it.
My comment is based on Neilsens stats that I've seen (if I notice them, I'll post them here), which should a definite trend towards aging in the audiences of the four major nets, to the point where their average age is outside the 18-49 target market or close to it, and CBS skews the oldest of all. CBS does the most cop shows. Maybe this is a coincidence, but I kind of doubt it.
What one person like your daughter does is not the issue. What counts is the data the networks and advertisers use to base their decisions on, because that will have a noticeable impact on the real world. CBS's advertisers are not going to ask your daughter's permission before they pull their ads. They base their decisions on date from thousands of Nielsens families (we all know this by now, right?)
CBS knows that their current lineup is attracting an audience that skews too old for their advertisers. They need to do something to change that and one obvious tactic is to change the type of shows they air. What else can they do?
^^^
The average age of a CBS viewer is higher than the other networks, but, like I said earlier, they nevertheless typically place second in the 18-49 demo. The high average age isn't really a problem since their total viewership level is so high and they attract enough viewers in the demo to set high advertising rates.
The average age of a CBS viewer is higher than the other networks, but, like I said earlier, they nevertheless typically place second in the 18-49 demo. The high average age isn't really a problem since their total viewership level is so high and they attract enough viewers in the demo to set high advertising rates.
Basically, the problem some people have with CBS is that the shows are good enough to attract an adult audience. They also attract young people, which despite the impression you might get isn't composes solely of meanspirited nitwits. But some of the youngsters (physical and mental,) fear getting age cooties through their TV screens. This is stupid, but there it is.
TV programming aimed largely at young people is usually pretty crappy. The shows that have high 18-49 demo ratings mostly have high ratings, period. There are only a handful that skew younger, in the relevant sense that older people are not a part of the audience. The real question is, does CBS have shows that don't attract a substantial audience in 18-49? Don't think so. I do wish people who can't understand statistics wouldn't insist on playing with them.
The problem some people have with cop/legal/procedural shows is not just they don't have much judgment and can't tell what they're watching. I mean, there is that, and it's a big part. After all, the OP couldn't even tell that The Good Wife is a serialized drama. But part of it is that some people watch TV just for daydreams. And some people daydream of violence and murder and lawlessness and the triumph of bad assess over the puling mob of candyassess everywhere. There's no quasisociopathic glee in something so boringly moral. This is the kind of audience that thinks the sex, violence and vulgar language are what makes cable so much better than broadcast TV because it's just more interesting.
If CBS' programming does somehow collapse like a house of cards, then we'll get more reality programming. I'm sure this will satsify the OP, who for some peculiar reason thinks Survivor and the Amazing Race are bright spots.
The problem with the dispute between serialized and episodic is that the all serialized camp can't conduct a reasoned argument. Inevitably, since they don't have any eidence. The faux moderate argument, that it's a question of execution and there are no intrinsic difficulties, depends on a careful agnosticism on the success of the serial elements. What heavily serialized show every ended well? Does any one really care about the serial on Eureka?
For instance, in the name of serial character development, Jack has got Alison and now we're having fake obstacles to matrimony. Fargo is now a success and no longer gets dumped on. Where's the puppy kicking appeal? Jo isn't a kickass bitch but a wounded princess. Nathan Stark isn't even a memory and we've got Zane for the 18-49 appeal. And the wacky hijinks are now always accidental and nobody in Eureka ever wants to murder anyone.
TV programming aimed largely at young people is usually pretty crappy. The shows that have high 18-49 demo ratings mostly have high ratings, period. There are only a handful that skew younger, in the relevant sense that older people are not a part of the audience. The real question is, does CBS have shows that don't attract a substantial audience in 18-49? Don't think so. I do wish people who can't understand statistics wouldn't insist on playing with them.
The problem some people have with cop/legal/procedural shows is not just they don't have much judgment and can't tell what they're watching. I mean, there is that, and it's a big part. After all, the OP couldn't even tell that The Good Wife is a serialized drama. But part of it is that some people watch TV just for daydreams. And some people daydream of violence and murder and lawlessness and the triumph of bad assess over the puling mob of candyassess everywhere. There's no quasisociopathic glee in something so boringly moral. This is the kind of audience that thinks the sex, violence and vulgar language are what makes cable so much better than broadcast TV because it's just more interesting.
If CBS' programming does somehow collapse like a house of cards, then we'll get more reality programming. I'm sure this will satsify the OP, who for some peculiar reason thinks Survivor and the Amazing Race are bright spots.
The problem with the dispute between serialized and episodic is that the all serialized camp can't conduct a reasoned argument. Inevitably, since they don't have any eidence. The faux moderate argument, that it's a question of execution and there are no intrinsic difficulties, depends on a careful agnosticism on the success of the serial elements. What heavily serialized show every ended well? Does any one really care about the serial on Eureka?
For instance, in the name of serial character development, Jack has got Alison and now we're having fake obstacles to matrimony. Fargo is now a success and no longer gets dumped on. Where's the puppy kicking appeal? Jo isn't a kickass bitch but a wounded princess. Nathan Stark isn't even a memory and we've got Zane for the 18-49 appeal. And the wacky hijinks are now always accidental and nobody in Eureka ever wants to murder anyone.
That's what cable is for. Mad Men wouldn't last a season on a major network. More people live in BROOKLYN than watch Mad Men.
You do realize there is more than one channel right? Culture is doing just fine.
Evidently, they don't.
They may be bucking conventional wisdom, but they're doing it successfully or else they wouldn't continue with their current strategy.
Wow just looking at these unimaginative cookie cutter consonant crazy titles points out the OP point and made me realize how it's being years since I've seen anything on that network.
Top Scripted Broadcast Shows by 18-49 Demo (ending Sept. 25)
1. Two and a Half Men 10.7 13,617 (CBS) oh... that can't be right
2. 2 Broke Girls 7.1 9,090 (CBS) That's CBS too... surely not
8. How I Met Your Mother 5.2 6,683 (CBS) So... three comedies in the Top 10? Just a coincidence
9. Big Bang Theory 5.1 6,564 (CBS)
10. Big Bang Theory 4.9 6,300 (CBS) wait... 5 of the top 10 slots go to CBS?
12. How I Met Your Mother 4.7 6,033 (CBS) #12 does too???
15. NCIS 4.3 5,524 (CBS) so... the #1 drama is on CBS... nah...
18. Criminal Minds 4.1 5,236 (CBS) The second highest rated drama too?? Inconceivable!
24 NCIS: LOS ANGELES 3.6 4,540 (CBS)
25 Hawaii Five-0 3.4 4,348 (CBS)
You're right... CBS is dead in the water
1. Two and a Half Men 10.7 13,617 (CBS) oh... that can't be right
2. 2 Broke Girls 7.1 9,090 (CBS) That's CBS too... surely not
8. How I Met Your Mother 5.2 6,683 (CBS) So... three comedies in the Top 10? Just a coincidence
9. Big Bang Theory 5.1 6,564 (CBS)
10. Big Bang Theory 4.9 6,300 (CBS) wait... 5 of the top 10 slots go to CBS?
12. How I Met Your Mother 4.7 6,033 (CBS) #12 does too???
15. NCIS 4.3 5,524 (CBS) so... the #1 drama is on CBS... nah...
18. Criminal Minds 4.1 5,236 (CBS) The second highest rated drama too?? Inconceivable!
24 NCIS: LOS ANGELES 3.6 4,540 (CBS)
25 Hawaii Five-0 3.4 4,348 (CBS)
You're right... CBS is dead in the water
Evidently, they don't.
They may be bucking conventional wisdom, but they're doing it successfully or else they wouldn't continue with their current strategy.
As their audience ages, this strategy is going to stop working. They need to think about their future. (And it looks like Person of Interest might be a step in the right direction.)
Despite the titles, NCIS and CSI are very different shows. NCIS is more action/military based. Forensics actually don't play as big a part, and the gore is often less disturbing or icky than other crime shows. It's more like say, 24 than a procedural. It also has a bit of a comedy feel to it-it's like Bones, but without the show's sometimes hard-to-watch gore.
CSI (and it's spinoffs) on the other hand is a far darker show, with more of a Seven/Silence of the Lambs feel to it sometimes. There's ocassional bits of humor, though.
Criminal Minds...now that's the really depressing one...does that guy from Dharma and Greg ever smile on that show?
CSI (and it's spinoffs) on the other hand is a far darker show, with more of a Seven/Silence of the Lambs feel to it sometimes. There's ocassional bits of humor, though.
Criminal Minds...now that's the really depressing one...does that guy from Dharma and Greg ever smile on that show?
From the perspective of every type of show that CBS could be doing, they're similar - both have a law enforcement angle. CBS's drama lineup shows very little variation compared with, say, AMC, which has Breaking Bad, Mad Men and The Walking Dead - three shows that are very different from one another in topic and tone.
2 Two and a Half Men CBS 7.4 9,403
5 Big Bang Theory, THE CBS 4.9 6,288
6 MIKE & Molly P CBS 4.8 6,178
7 2 Broke Girls CBS 4.6 5,922
8 How I Met Your Mother CBS 4.5 5,771
10 NCIS CBS 4.2 5,410
15 Criminal Minds CBS 3.6 4,637
17 NCIS: LOS ANGELES CBS 3.6 4,601
19 60 Minutes CBS 3.5 4,498
23 Hawaii Five-0 CBS 3.2 4,151
24 Amazing Race 19 CBS 3.2 4,063
25 SURVIVOR: SOUTH PACIFIC CBS 3.2 4,056
CBS had 12 shows in the top 25 in the 18-49 demographic this week. I think this pretty much negates this thread.
5 Big Bang Theory, THE CBS 4.9 6,288
6 MIKE & Molly P CBS 4.8 6,178
7 2 Broke Girls CBS 4.6 5,922
8 How I Met Your Mother CBS 4.5 5,771
10 NCIS CBS 4.2 5,410
15 Criminal Minds CBS 3.6 4,637
17 NCIS: LOS ANGELES CBS 3.6 4,601
19 60 Minutes CBS 3.5 4,498
23 Hawaii Five-0 CBS 3.2 4,151
24 Amazing Race 19 CBS 3.2 4,063
25 SURVIVOR: SOUTH PACIFIC CBS 3.2 4,056
CBS had 12 shows in the top 25 in the 18-49 demographic this week. I think this pretty much negates this thread.
I just discovered this thread so I'm a bit late to the party. There are a few flaws in the OP's argument.
First, yes, Westerns fell out of favor. So did spy shows and gimmick sitcoms, and the cracks are showing in the reality TV business. And it looks like the prime time animated series genre is about to implode if The Simpsons is killed. But crime dramas have been a mainstay, and consistently popular, since prime-time network television was established 63 years ago. They ain't going anywhere. If CSI is cancelled, another show will take its place. And in the meantime, NCIS, which is actually becoming more popular as it approaches its first decade, is carrying the ball with its spin-off (expect a third before long - well technically this is a continuation of the JAG franchise so you'd better say fourth).
As for CBS's perceived over-reliance on "sex coms" - do a survey of sitcoms over the years. Most of them were sex coms in some way. Exhibit A: The Dick Van Dyke Show. Exhibit B: Bewitched. The only difference is back in the 60s they had to write a lot of things in code to get stuff past the censor. Rob and Laura Petrie shared a bed - unheard of. Fred and Wilma Flintstone had a child - meaning they had to have had sex. That was an animated series. Move ahead a few years and you had Maude getting an abortion and All in the Family - while not a sex com - making a lot of people uncomfortable by addressing racism head-on. Back then it was condemned just as much as some people today condemn 2 1/2 Men.
Fact is people are and remain interested in watching these shows - otherwise they wouldn't make them.
Alex
First, yes, Westerns fell out of favor. So did spy shows and gimmick sitcoms, and the cracks are showing in the reality TV business. And it looks like the prime time animated series genre is about to implode if The Simpsons is killed. But crime dramas have been a mainstay, and consistently popular, since prime-time network television was established 63 years ago. They ain't going anywhere. If CSI is cancelled, another show will take its place. And in the meantime, NCIS, which is actually becoming more popular as it approaches its first decade, is carrying the ball with its spin-off (expect a third before long - well technically this is a continuation of the JAG franchise so you'd better say fourth).
As for CBS's perceived over-reliance on "sex coms" - do a survey of sitcoms over the years. Most of them were sex coms in some way. Exhibit A: The Dick Van Dyke Show. Exhibit B: Bewitched. The only difference is back in the 60s they had to write a lot of things in code to get stuff past the censor. Rob and Laura Petrie shared a bed - unheard of. Fred and Wilma Flintstone had a child - meaning they had to have had sex. That was an animated series. Move ahead a few years and you had Maude getting an abortion and All in the Family - while not a sex com - making a lot of people uncomfortable by addressing racism head-on. Back then it was condemned just as much as some people today condemn 2 1/2 Men.
Fact is people are and remain interested in watching these shows - otherwise they wouldn't make them.
Alex
Oh I know, I can't wait until Food Network gives me a good science fiction show.
I'm sorry but over the years each of these networks NBC, ABC, Fox, NBC, CW (UPN + WB) and even other sister networks like TNT, USA, FX... they all at somepoint have had a majority of their lineup dominated by a certain thing. CBS seems to be the network for Police Procedurals and I don't have any issue with that. I only watch NCIS and Criminal minds on that newtwork. As for FOX, these days thats as someone stated youthful network, just taking a look at its shows and the cast in there shows, the lead actors tend to be in the under 40 age range and its been capitalizing on GLEE. ABC is a network that I don't pay much attention to but I recall that being "feminine" (note I use that term and not girl :P ) I don't really like to stereotype anyways but its dominated by Medical Romance-Dramas like Grey's, Private Practice, Combat Hospital, (I feel like I'm missing one?) and shows centered around a mostly female cast. NBC is a mixed bag of marbles, It has always tried Police and Legal dramas, some medical dramas but it has its random shows. I dislike NBC because its rare for anything to stick there.
I'm sorry but over the years each of these networks NBC, ABC, Fox, NBC, CW (UPN + WB) and even other sister networks like TNT, USA, FX... they all at somepoint have had a majority of their lineup dominated by a certain thing. CBS seems to be the network for Police Procedurals and I don't have any issue with that. I only watch NCIS and Criminal minds on that newtwork. As for FOX, these days thats as someone stated youthful network, just taking a look at its shows and the cast in there shows, the lead actors tend to be in the under 40 age range and its been capitalizing on GLEE. ABC is a network that I don't pay much attention to but I recall that being "feminine" (note I use that term and not girl :P ) I don't really like to stereotype anyways but its dominated by Medical Romance-Dramas like Grey's, Private Practice, Combat Hospital, (I feel like I'm missing one?) and shows centered around a mostly female cast. NBC is a mixed bag of marbles, It has always tried Police and Legal dramas, some medical dramas but it has its random shows. I dislike NBC because its rare for anything to stick there.
Evidently, they don't.
They may be bucking conventional wisdom, but they're doing it successfully or else they wouldn't continue with their current strategy.
As their audience ages, this strategy is going to stop working. They need to think about their future. (And it looks like Person of Interest might be a step in the right direction.)
Twelve shows in the top 25 for the coveted 18-49 age group. Seems like my daughter isn't alone in her like of "crime shows" among her peers.
Person of Interest draws lower demo ratings than NCIS, Criminal Minds, and CSI.
Good point. Looks like CBS needs to try again. Oh well, I kind of like the show anyway.
CBS is on the same road to the cliff as all the other networks. Might take them a bit longer to get there, but all the networks are on the path towards aging out of the demographic the advertisers want to reach and losing too much of their audience to cable. Those two trends are threatening broadcast as a viable business.
So far this season, ABC has made the most progress in figuring out a solution to their collective problem by aping the cable style with decent ratings (Pan Am). FOX may have hit upon another solution - expensive eye candy adventure - in Terra Nova. Poor NBC got nothing again.
Oh well, I kind of like the show anyway.CBS is on the same road to the cliff as all the other networks. Might take them a bit longer to get there, but all the networks are on the path towards aging out of the demographic the advertisers want to reach and losing too much of their audience to cable. Those two trends are threatening broadcast as a viable business.
So far this season, ABC has made the most progress in figuring out a solution to their collective problem by aping the cable style with decent ratings (Pan Am). FOX may have hit upon another solution - expensive eye candy adventure - in Terra Nova. Poor NBC got nothing again.
Evidently, they don't.
They may be bucking conventional wisdom, but they're doing it successfully or else they wouldn't continue with their current strategy.
As their audience ages, this strategy is going to stop working. They need to think about their future. (And it looks like Person of Interest might be a step in the right direction.)
Twelve shows in the top 25 for the coveted 18-49 age group. Seems like my daughter isn't alone in her like of "crime shows" among her peers.
Someday I sincerely hope that people around here will realize that networks make decisions based on millions of viewers, not on one or two people that you might know personally. The trend lines are what I'm talking about, not the current situation. Businesses that fail to recognize dangerous trends that are taking them towards a cliff tend to run right off that cliff. Just ask Detroit.
CBS should be planning now for what's going to happen ten or twenty years from now. However, it would be typical of myopic American business if they just went off the cliff instead.
Twelve shows in the top 25 for the coveted 18-49 age group. Seems like my daughter isn't alone in her like of "crime shows" among her peers.
Someday I sincerely hope that people around here will realize that networks make decisions based on millions of viewers, not on one or two people that you might know personally. The trend lines are what I'm talking about, not the current situation. Businesses that fail to recognize dangerous trends that are taking them towards a cliff tend to run right off that cliff. Just ask Detroit.
It's odd. Because I was going to say the same thing about your comments. You've made it quite well known you don't like cop shows. Which is what mostly (and quite successfully) CBS shows.
That said... the 18-49 audience REALLY likes what CBS shows. Even compared to cable.
They can prepare in the sense of infrastructure--internet viewing, etc, but not creatively. It's not that simple as looking at what is popular NOW and graphing out a line.
Right now people are beginning to pitch what will happen next season. Decisions what ACTUALLY will get picked up won't happen until the spring.
Networks want to be on the pulse of what interests people NOW, not ten years from now. Hell, most of the execs will have been fired in ten years and working for a different network.
Entertainment is of the moment. Creatively you can't really prepare that far down the road.