Alternative rank system.

[Autistoid]

Alright pureply speculative but here goes.

Are we in need of an alternative ranking system?

Since I was a young kid I've always struggled to understand the rank system of the Enterprise D.


My biggest problem has always been the nonvisable non comms.

Judging by most episode a good fraction of a crews staffs are commisioned officers. Yet only a small fraction will get to a rank of Leutenant or higher.

To me this makes no sense so I'm just asking have you ever thought of alternative ranking systems.

Because as is, it seems there are far too many leutenants and not enough of anything else.

 

[Autistoid]

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=135218&page=2


One of my issuses is that why would 90 percent of crew stay non coms. Why would the utopia federation hold back it's citizens from getting a rank.

Anyways as the thread above shows its not just me that is confused.

 

[-Brett-]

That thread is four years old.

 

[Melakon]

That thread is four years old.

That doesn't mean they're not still confused.

 

[The Wormhole]

I don't get what you're asking, what do you mean by an "alternative rank system?" There doesn't seem anything wrong with the current one, based roughly on the US Navy's rank system. Okay, yes, Star Trek could do a better job with enlisted ranks, but I don't see why that would require re-writing the whole rank system.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think the majority of crewmembers hold the rank of crewman, but don't have any rank insignia. I always imagined that they served mainly as background technicians and support personnel. They're there, and if stories were primarily focused on them doing such tasks, then officers would probably be viewed as few and far between from their perspective, IMO.

 

[-Brett-]

That thread is four years old.

That doesn't mean they're not still confused.

I'm just thinking that there can't be that many people confused by this if the topic only comes up every four years.

 

[Nerys Myk]

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=135218&page=2


One of my issuses is that why would 90 percent of crew stay non coms. Why would the utopia federation hold back it's citizens from getting a rank.

Anyways as the thread above shows its not just me that is confused.

What does being a Federation citizen have to do with what rank you achieve? Rank will probably be awarded through time in service, ability and knowledge. Some people might be more comfortable as non-coms or lower officer ranks with no desire to rise higher. In "Tapestry" we see a Picard who, through his own choices, was a Science Division Lieutenant. The Federation had nothing to do with him "stalling out" as a Lieutenant.

Most organization are pyramid shaped. There will always be a larger amount of younger, entry level, rank and file personnel at the bottom. You don't have an army full of generals or a company full of CEOS.

 

[Timo]

Rank will probably be awarded through time in service, ability and knowledge.

We have seen enough Trek promotions to tell that this isn't quite true. Different people get promoted at wildly different rates, and to wildly different final ranks, as is not the case in today's militaries. Also, promotions are handed out as rewards, whereas today's organizations would hand out commendations and decorations.

I could easily believe in a Starfleet system where only people who are interested in rank get one. If you just want to go to space to do your thing, you will never get promoted to any rank whatsoever. If you want to lead a team of people, you may have to accept some sort of a rank for symbolic purposes, and then you can stick to it till you retire or die. But if your ambition is to command, you probably won't stop at commanding just that initial team, and will climb the ladder till you command entire departments.

And while space assignments aren't a limited resource, department commands are, so you will have to start competing. Which is a good reason for introducing more ranks than just "I don't command", "I command a team", "I command a department" and "I command the whole ship", even if those are the only actual command positions available.

So Starfleet could "keep" the old western naval rank system for competition purposes, but ditch the noncom system that has no practical use because if you are a Starfleet noncom, then you by definition don't command or compete. After all, there supposedly are no salaries, at least not in TNG, and we never learn that salaries would be tied to rank in any of the Trek realms, so that's no reason to covet brass for your collar or gold braid for your sleeve.

Why are many militaries today "up or out" -minded? They invest in the education of their officers, sure, but they wouldn't need to invest for the next-level education of somebody who chooses to stall at a given level. Yet they have few slots available for the beefiest types of assignment, such as unit commands, so if somebody stalls, he either has to be kicked out or bypassed. And bypassing seems to be a strict no-no: a military hierarchy may strive to be meritocratic, but the only way to make that appear even halfway fair is to stick to some sort of formal rules, and steady progression and seniority rules are needed to keep that house of cards from collapsing. Perhaps Starfleet feels it needn't worry, as nobody's pay is in jeopardy there, and injured pride just makes the hurt party strive for even more?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Autistoid]

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=135218&page=2


One of my issuses is that why would 90 percent of crew stay non coms. Why would the utopia federation hold back it's citizens from getting a rank.

Anyways as the thread above shows its not just me that is confused.

What does being a Federation citizen have to do with what rank you achieve? Rank will probably be awarded through time in service, ability and knowledge. Some people might be more comfortable as non-coms or lower officer ranks with no desire to rise higher. In "Tapestry" we see a Picard who, through his own choices, was a Science Division Lieutenant. The Federation had nothing to do with him "stalling out" as a Lieutenant.

Most organization are pyramid shaped. There will always be a larger amount of younger, entry level, rank and file personnel at the bottom. You don't have an army full of generals or a company full of CEOS.

We all know that the system supposedly copies the navy, yet the reality is you never actually see that in play.


Gene rodenberry was even on record at some point saying that everyone in starfleet(tng era) were officers.

Writers eventually ignored this completely but the idea is there, and on screen there is some reflection of this.

Of course no one is suggesting that the system is completely wrong or right but it does ask some hard questions?

There are 1000 people on the enterprise D with a large portion of people shown, possessing officer ranks.

Why would so many people take a temporary noncom role on ships and than disappear. Of course many folk may start off as non com's but you'd think there'd be a high number of people going back to get officer certification.

 

[Autistoid]

I don't get what you're asking, what do you mean by an "alternative rank system?" There doesn't seem anything wrong with the current one, based roughly on the US Navy's rank system. Okay, yes, Star Trek could do a better job with enlisted ranks, but I don't see why that would require re-writing the whole rank system.

Could do a better job is a bit of an understatement.

The only non com we even know of is chief obrien.

Who has more combat knowledge, and engineering know how than some captains.

Yet if they actually followed military structures would have to take orders from nog.

 

[Nerys Myk]

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=135218&page=2


One of my issuses is that why would 90 percent of crew stay non coms. Why would the utopia federation hold back it's citizens from getting a rank.

Anyways as the thread above shows its not just me that is confused.

What does being a Federation citizen have to do with what rank you achieve? Rank will probably be awarded through time in service, ability and knowledge. Some people might be more comfortable as non-coms or lower officer ranks with no desire to rise higher. In "Tapestry" we see a Picard who, through his own choices, was a Science Division Lieutenant. The Federation had nothing to do with him "stalling out" as a Lieutenant.

Most organization are pyramid shaped. There will always be a larger amount of younger, entry level, rank and file personnel at the bottom. You don't have an army full of generals or a company full of CEOS.

We all know that the system supposedly copies the navy, yet the reality is you never actually see that in play.

I'm not sure what you mean here. What isn't in play? The various series and films have shown people of various ranks. Not always the regulars, but often guest stars and extras

Gene rodenberry was even on record at some point saying that everyone in starfleet(tng era) were officers.
Writers eventually ignored this completely but the idea is there, and on screen there is some reflection of this.

A statement that didn't even make it into the first pilot.

Of course no one is suggesting that the system is completely wrong or right but it does ask some hard questions?

There are 1000 people on the enterprise D with a large portion of people shown, possessing officer ranks.

I doubt we've seen most of the crew(s). We see officers because that's where the focus usually is. But we do see enlisted on occasion. Various yeomen and security officers in TOS, Simon Tarses and O'Brien in TNG, Daniels, Cunningham and Cutler on Enterprise. Also on Enterprise we see various enlisted MACOs.

Why would so many people take a temporary noncom role on ships and than disappear. Of course many folk may start off as non com's but you'd think there'd be a high number of people going back to get officer certification.

Temporary? What gives you the idea that noncoms are temporary positions? It's a key role in every military organization. Some might say the most important one. It's not a stop on the way to being an officer. I've never heard of the term "certification" being used to describe becoming an officer. Officers are commissioned. Most go through four years of schooling. Others are professionals like doctors and lawyers who gone through a training course when joining the service. And finally there are some noncoms who chose to be officers who also go through a training course.

 

[Ithekro]

Why would so many people take a temporary noncom role on ships and than disappear.

I see no logic in this statement. What are you trying to say?

 

[The Wormhole]

The only non com we even know of is chief obrien.

This exaggeration is often stated whenever discussions of Starfleet's enlisted ranks comes up. Indeed, I've stated it myself many times. However, it's not strictly accurate.

The TOS movies show plenty of enlisted personnel, they're the ones wearing jumpsuits in TWOK-TUC. Although many often mistake these people for cadets, indeed Nemesis shows young Cadet Picard dressed in that uniform.

Also, we know there were other enlisted on DS9, a bunch of them get showcased in the episode Starship Down, with one of them, Muniz, returning in two more episodes (Hard Time and The Ship). Voyager and Enterprise also featured many enlisted background characters.

Granted, it is handled sloppily, any enlisted characters, including O'Brien have talked about attending the Academy.

Who has more combat knowledge, and engineering know how than some captains.

That's true in today's militaries. The enlisted are usually specialists and experts in their fields while the officers, particularly COs are generalists who need to be familiar on a wide variety of matters. Yes, that is a gross oversimplification of matters, but it is common for a high up enlisted to have more combat and engineering knowledge than their CO.

Yet if they actually followed military structures would have to take orders from nog.

Well, yes. O'Brien himself even says so when Nog leaves for the Academy.

 

[Ithekro]

Most good young ensigns learn that you listen to the chiefs if you want to get anywhere.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I generally assume that the extras in the background of scenes (unless addressed by rank or its clearly visible) are non-coms.

Though if you look at some ship schematics for TOS-era ships (the ones that give department breakdowns) then the lowest rank they list is Ensign--which I think goes back to GR's idea that everyone in Starfleet went through the Academy so there were no NCOs.

 

[Timo]

...Which makes it all the funnier that the pilot episode of Star Trek, purportedly penned by Roddenberry himself alone, features scripted NCO or enlisted characters. (Or did this Garison guy just happen to have the first names Clarence Paul Oscar?)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[enterprisecvn65]

I've always wondered exactly what is the main function of a "Rear Admiral"

 

[T'Girl]

One of my issuses is that why would 90 percent of crew stay non coms. Why would the utopia federation hold back it's citizens from getting a rank.

Kind of like someone refusing to work in a school because they can't immediately be a principal, You know, because being a teacher isn't good enough.

 

[fireproof78]

Well, are we talking Starfleet rear admiral (which, depending what you read has two halves.)

In naval history, a rear admiral was an assistant to a vice admiral, and commanded the rear section of a squadron of ships.

In Star Trek, the Rear Admirals we saw were often Academy commandants, or in the equivalent role of commodore, when that rank was discarded, hence the upper and lower half.

As for the rank system, I would be curious to hear recommendations for a different type of system. Really, the Starfleet one strikes me as very functional but not always employed consistently, due to the needs of the story.

And I'm glad The Wormhole pointed it out the enlisted ratings often are far more experienced and knowledgeable than officers, especially junior officers. Having known several enlisted servicemen, they have put in many, many years in to their job. Officers are not always as experienced, and often have to oversee many other tasks.

A good, new, officer listens to their senior chief.