Alternate universe idea dilutes the drama of film?

[kkozoriz1]

Yeah just because Romulus has been destroyed in the Prime universe and Vulcan destroyed in the reboot universe doesn't mean there aren't still stories one can tell if one really thinks about it. In fact I would do a follow up story about Ambassador Spock taking on an alias as his helps to rebuild his world in the alternate timeline and establish the colony while also continuing to deal with the fallout of his actions. Spock now has an enormous burden on his shoulders that he will have to struggle with, not only the loss of Romulus but being responsible for his part in the destruction of Vulcan. As Spock himself would say "There are always possibilities."

I still don't understand exactly why Romulus had to be destroyed in the Prime universe. Destroying an entire planet was the only way to give Nero a motivation big enough for a movie?

If Abrams & Orci & Kurtzman have no plans to return to the prime universe, why mess up the place before you leave?

"Why is that guy so mad?"
"His whole planet got blown up"
"Wow, he must be really mad. What did he do about it?"
"He blew up one planet and tried to blow up another one"
"Geepers, he must ready be a bad guy"

 

[Admiral_Young]

How does it "mess up" the prime universe? If anything it would make it more interesting...not only was the planet destroyed it was destroyed while his wife and unborn child were still on it. It was like a twisted version of Superman, what if Jor-El was the last son of Krypton?

 

[kkozoriz1]

If it os to be destroyed I'd rather it be done by someone who had an interest in it. To me it feels like a teenager moving out of his parents house and into his first apartment so he trashes the house before he leaves.

"Only I get to play with Romulans now, neener-neener"

 

[Sabataage]

I know right? This alternate universe is crap! We're just supposed to accept it move on!? Ha! And what's up with Doctor Who huh? They completly changed the actor playing him last year! And what, we're suppose to pretend he's the same person? They try to write it off by saying he "regenerated". Pfft. I mean that's just dumb. How can anyone take this show seriously if you know the hero can't ever die? I can guarantee you it won't last another season. I'm a time traveller from 1967, by the way.

 

[Destructor]

If it os to be destroyed I'd rather it be done by someone who had an interest in it. To me it feels like a teenager moving out of his parents house and into his first apartment so he trashes the house before he leaves.

"Only I get to play with Romulans now, neener-neener"

Well, the Romulans actually play a pretty big role in the plot of Star Trek Online, which is set after the destruction of Romulus. In fact, the reason for the destruction of Romulus is part of that plot. So in that instance, the destruction of Romulus is actually being used as an impetus for the story, not a barrier to the story. All good fiction thrives on conflict, this is no different.

The destruction of Romulus is now a fact in the Star Trek Prime timeline. Next you'll be complaining about what a bummer it was that the Death Star blew up Aldeeran.

 

[Devon]

Let's see, I have this great follow up to Nemesis. Whoops! No Romulus here. Oh well, I'll just pop over the the NuUniverse. Hey, where's Vulcan?

Oh well, so much for wrapping up the unification storyline.

Because people were dying to see that and all.

I still don't understand exactly why Romulus had to be destroyed in the Prime universe.

There is no explanation needed, this is getting ridiculous.

 

[ST-One]

Khan is an empire builder and he wants to re-establish a power base. Genesis might let him do that. His revenge against Kirk was as much because Kirk was called in by Carol. He didn't go looking for him.

Then you haven't watched the same TWOK that I've seen.
In the film I've seen, Khan very much went out to seek revenge (The Wrath of Khan?).
Or why else do you think he lets Chekov say that the new orders regarding Genesis came from Kirk?

The 'superior intellect' doesn't prevent Khan from acting as irrational as Nero.

 

[Shazam!]

How does it "mess up" the prime universe? If anything it would make it more interesting

So interesting, we'll never see it again.

 

[ST-One]

How does it "mess up" the prime universe? If anything it would make it more interesting

So interesting, we'll never see it again.

Says who?

 

[UFO]

The planet Romulus was an important bit of Star Trek for me. While TV/film Romulans were usually bland generic villains (with disgusting bowl cuts and shoulder pads), the novels, especially the Rihannsu ones by Diane Duane, gave them a rich backstory, culture and even a language. However I wasn't upset by the planet's destruction. Why? Well, I liked STXI, ...

I rest my case.

... I liked Nero (even if it never occurred to him to shoot Red Matter into the Hobus star)

Hadn't Spock already shot Red Matter into the Hobus star?

Also, I can't think of any Romulan stories left to be told ...

If the audience could think of the stories there would be no need to tell them!

Actually that reminds me a bit of one of my theories: 99% of all the good songs that can be written already have been. But I digress.

Having just read the novelization it's actually explained why Nero didn't shoot the Red Matter into the Hobus star, in the book Spock Prime explains to Kirk that Nero was so blinded by his rage and anger over the loss of his wife, unborn son, and planet that he no longer cared about saving Romulus that way. Indeed Jim declares that's irrational to which Spock agrees with him.

Curiouser and Curiouser. Romulus is already destroyed. How can it be saved? You are not suggesting Nero could have gone back in time to another universe are you? Even if that could have meaning to him, where would he get Red Matter from and how would he know it had time travel side effects that could be use in such a fashion?

Edit: Oh, you mean in the JJverse. Well he couldn't do that until after Spock arrived and then he had more urgent matters to deal with. Surely he did care about saving NuRomulus or else he wouldn't have needed to clean out the Federation to enable Romulan expansion.

 

[Pauln6]

Khan is an empire builder and he wants to re-establish a power base. Genesis might let him do that. His revenge against Kirk was as much because Kirk was called in by Carol. He didn't go looking for him.

Then you haven't watched the same TWOK that I've seen.
In the film I've seen, Khan very much went out to seek revenge (The Wrath of Khan?).
Or why else do you think he lets Chekov say that the new orders regarding Genesis came from Kirk?

The 'superior intellect' doesn't prevent Khan from acting as irrational as Nero.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear; you asked why Khan was interested in Genesis. It was Genesis that he was after all along. What he would have done next, we can only speculate but I don't think he would have scoured the universe for Kirk - I think he would have set himself up somehow, maybe use the device to create a base of operations, and perhaps sell the tech to enemies of the Federation to wreak maximum havoc in the long game.

Carol called Kirk to Regula One. Khan didn't know that Carol knew him, he didn't know that she would call him personally, and he didn't know that Kirk would respond in person (and if there had been another ship in the quadrant, Kirk would not have responded ). Khan was just trying to make mischief by invoking Kirk's name.

Now when Kirk stumbled across his path, he couldn't resist taking the opportunity for revenge. It was only when Kirk outsmarted him (twice) that he lost his perspective and started ranting and taking bigger risks. Despite the melodramatic performance, Khan was a much more subtle villain than Nero.

 

[illeanacross]

Are people really complaining about Romulus being destroyed and that it won't give the Romulans a richer backstory?

If anything, the Romulans (and Vulcans, in the NuTrekverse) just became the most interesting species in Trek... for once.

 

[ST-One]

Carol called Kirk to Regula One. Khan didn't know that Carol knew him, he didn't know that she would call him personally, and he didn't know that Kirk would respond in person (and if there had been another ship in the quadrant, Kirk would not have responded ). Khan was just trying to make mischief by invoking Kirk's name.

Now when Kirk stumbled across his path, he couldn't resist taking the opportunity for revenge. It was only when Kirk outsmarted him (twice) that he lost his perspective and started ranting and taking bigger risks. Despite the melodramatic performance, Khan was a much more subtle villain than Nero.

Yeah, right.

No, he couldn't have know that Dr. Marcus knew Kirk. But he dropped the name (through Chekov) to get the scientists to complain right at the source of the new 'orders'.

Khan took steps to get Kirk to come to him (or, at least, to find out 'where [he] may find' him). Or why else do you think he even allowed Carol's transmission to go through as much as it did ('it's jammed at the source' - remember?)?

 

[Pauln6]

Are people really complaining about Romulus being destroyed and that it won't give the Romulans a richer backstory?

If anything, the Romulans (and Vulcans, in the NuTrekverse) just became the most interesting species in Trek... for once.

True, although personally I think that environmental disaster has more potential than outright destruction - an obvious allegory for all the disasters we have around the world atm.

 

[illeanacross]

True, although personally I think that environmental disaster has more potential than outright destruction - an obvious allegory for all the disasters we have around the world atm.

I agree with that.

But in a way, the new trek film did kinda serve both universes. It set things up in its own universe and also set things up for the Romulans in Star Trek Online. So I do disagree with people who say Abrams just did whatever he wanted... because obviously there were talks about the implications for both universes and how each one could go forward.

 

[Pauln6]

Carol called Kirk to Regula One. Khan didn't know that Carol knew him, he didn't know that she would call him personally, and he didn't know that Kirk would respond in person (and if there had been another ship in the quadrant, Kirk would not have responded ). Khan was just trying to make mischief by invoking Kirk's name.

Now when Kirk stumbled across his path, he couldn't resist taking the opportunity for revenge. It was only when Kirk outsmarted him (twice) that he lost his perspective and started ranting and taking bigger risks. Despite the melodramatic performance, Khan was a much more subtle villain than Nero.

Yeah, right.

No, he couldn't have know that Dr. Marcus knew Kirk. But he dropped the name (through Chekov) to get the scientists to complain right at the source of the new 'orders'.

Khan took steps to get Kirk to come to him (or, at least, to find out 'where [he] may find' him). Or why else do you think he even allowed Carol's transmission to go through as much as it did ('it's jammed at the source' - remember?)?

Strange that you don't think my suggestions have any merit at all? I'm a lawyer and we tend to look at all the evidence and reach a conclusion on balance of probabilities. I'm doing my assessment from memory so it is quite likely that there is evidence that I've forgotten. In movies where you have too little to go on, and the possibility of plot holes being the real reason, there are often multiple explanations that are equally plausible.

So, we are back to different assumptions based on the same evidence. I've always found it odd that the transmission was jammed at source mid flow, so Khan must either have held off notifying Carol that they were taking Genesis until they were very close by or the team ran around deleting data before Carol tried to call him and she got hold of him just as Reliant entered the system (slightly more likely than NuKirk finding Spock in a cave). I think in the TWoK novelisation it was the latter, because Carol really wasn't sure that she wanted to talk to Kirk at all but it might have been a combination of both.

I also agree that Khan was taunting Kirk by dropping his name out there but I don't think he was doing it in the realistic hope that Kirk would respond immediately in person (even if he might have held out a vain hope). He had no way of knowing that Kirk would be nearby, he would have no way of knowing how many ships would come, and I don't think he would have waited around in the unlikely hope that Kirk would come if he'd found what he was looking for on the base. He wanted Kirk to find out what was going on and using his name would have flagged it to him - perhaps for a later showdown but more likely just as a taunt.

If you watch Space Seed you get a better sense of the kind of man Khan is beneath the rage in TWoK. Nero was definitely a more shallow character with very transparent motivations even if you ignore the additional background we have on Khan from TOS.

 

[ST-One]

Carol called Kirk to Regula One. Khan didn't know that Carol knew him, he didn't know that she would call him personally, and he didn't know that Kirk would respond in person (and if there had been another ship in the quadrant, Kirk would not have responded ). Khan was just trying to make mischief by invoking Kirk's name.

Now when Kirk stumbled across his path, he couldn't resist taking the opportunity for revenge. It was only when Kirk outsmarted him (twice) that he lost his perspective and started ranting and taking bigger risks. Despite the melodramatic performance, Khan was a much more subtle villain than Nero.

Yeah, right.

No, he couldn't have know that Dr. Marcus knew Kirk. But he dropped the name (through Chekov) to get the scientists to complain right at the source of the new 'orders'.

Khan took steps to get Kirk to come to him (or, at least, to find out 'where [he] may find' him). Or why else do you think he even allowed Carol's transmission to go through as much as it did ('it's jammed at the source' - remember?)?

Strange that you don't think my suggestions have any merit at all? I'm a lawyer and we tend to look at all the evidence and reach a conclusion on balance of probabilities. I'm doing my assessment from memory so it is quite likely that there is evidence that I've forgotten. In movies where you have too little to go on, and the possibility of plot holes being the real reason, there are often multiple explanations that are equally plausible.

So, we are back to different assumptions based on the same evidence. I've always found it odd that the transmission was jammed at source mid flow, so Khan must either have held off notifying Carol that they were taking Genesis until they were very close by or the team ran around deleting data before Carol tried to call him and she got hold of him just as Reliant entered the system (slightly more likely than NuKirk finding Spock in a cave). I think in the TWoK novelisation it was the latter, because Carol really wasn't sure that she wanted to talk to Kirk at all but it might have been a combination of both.

I also agree that Khan was taunting Kirk by dropping his name out there but I don't think he was doing it in the realistic hope that Kirk would respond immediately in person (even if he might have held out a vain hope). He had no way of knowing that Kirk would be nearby, he would have no way of knowing how many ships would come, and I don't think he would have waited around in the unlikely hope that Kirk would come if he'd found what he was looking for on the base. He wanted Kirk to find out what was going on and using his name would have flagged it to him - perhaps for a later showdown but more likely just as a taunt.

No, you got it wrong.
Khan was trying to find Kirk. He wanted to kill him. That's his motivation.

If you watch Space Seed you get a better sense of the kind of man Khan is beneath the rage in TWoK. Nero was definitely a more shallow character with very transparent motivations even if you ignore the additional background we have on Khan from TOS.

There really isn't much of a difference in depth between movie-Khan and Nero.
Both characters work perfectly fine in the context of their movies.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The planet Romulus was an important bit of Star Trek for me. While TV/film Romulans were usually bland generic villains (with disgusting bowl cuts and shoulder pads), the novels, especially the Rihannsu ones by Diane Duane, gave them a rich backstory, culture and even a language. However I wasn't upset by the planet's destruction. Why? Well, I liked STXI, ...

I rest my case.

Isn't that what this is all about? That the STXI-haters are upset that JJ's film somehow affected their beloved Trek?

... I liked Nero (even if it never occurred to him to shoot Red Matter into the Hobus star)

Hadn't Spock already shot Red Matter into the Hobus star?

I'm talking about in the past, before he set off to Vulcan.

Also, I can't think of any Romulan stories left to be told ...

If the audience could think of the stories there would be no need to tell them!

What I actually meant but poorly expressed was that there were no story threads left dangling, bar unification, which I covered above. But as I've pointed out, there's another Romulus in the alternate past (you know, that place that is Star Trek for the forseeable future) and the only place Prime Trek lives on, the books, can tell stories set whenever they want.

There really isn't much of a difference in depth between movie-Khan and Nero.
Both characters work perfectly fine in the context of their movies.

This.

 

[Pauln6]

No, you got it wrong.
Khan was trying to find Kirk. He wanted to kill him. That's his motivation. .

Fair enough - it's been a while since I watched it! Which scene is it in though? Does he say it to Joachim in the scene where Chekov breaks communication with Regula One? If so, Khan does have access to the Federation database on Reliant at this stage. If he had accessed this and noted that Kirk was nearby then his decision to seek revenge there and then makes sense. If not, then it's a plot hole - the universe is huge and no way would he have hung around in the hope that Kirk would come by. That could take months and Reliant isn't the Narada - it's not as if it couldn't be destroyed in a fair fight.

I thought Khan was a bit surprised when Kirk himself showed up... or was that Kruge...? Damn I've been watching this crap for too many years!

If you watch Space Seed you get a better sense of the kind of man Khan is beneath the rage in TWoK. Nero was definitely a more shallow character with very transparent motivations even if you ignore the additional background we have on Khan from TOS.

There really isn't much of a difference in depth between movie-Khan and Nero.
Both characters work perfectly fine in the context of their movies.

I can see a difference. Khan portrays a range of emotions, a magnetic personality, and a plan that evolved as events unfold. The novelisation showing him torturing the scientists to death is particularly effective in establishing his villainous credentials - it was a shame that more elements from the book didn't make it into the recent comic adaptation too.

Nero was just angry and defiant and just chugged along unaffected by anything going on around him in the movie. In fairness to Nero, the movie wasn't about him and his relationship with any of the characters so we don't even scratch the surface about what makes him tick. His anger at Spock had far less resonance than Khan's anger though and that is with the blood of two planets compared to thirty or so victims in TWoK. Size isn't everything.

 

[JarodRussell]

I've seen Nero as an attempt to be kind of a Nolan-Joker character. Evil as an absolute, with no proper explanation. Because as a proper villain he simply doesn't work. But due to whatever (lack of writer's skill, lack of time, writer's strike, bad direction, wrong scenes cut, I don't know), Nero is now somewhere in between, not a good absolute, and not a good traditional villain.

The thing about Khan was that he blamed Kirk for the death of his wife, because Kirk marooned them in the first place, and didn't care for 15 years, and he wanted revenge. And scene. The Genesis Device was not his first goal, nor was it his intention to use it against Kirk. He only wanted to punish and kill Kirk, and THEN move on. The Genesis Device was a lucky coincidence for him, a powerful weapon that would have given him the opportunity to build a new empire, AFTER he killed Kirk. But the longer his confrontation with Kirk lasted, the more his lust for revenge devoured him.

Totally different to Nero. Nero lost his wife, turned instantly insane, blamed Spock, but then went on a silly amok run to destroy all planets in the Federation. It doesn't make much sense, which would have been okay if Nero's pure insanity would have gotten more screentime. But it didn't. Which makes him appear like a weak and not fully thought through villain.