Alternate reality vs. altered timeline

[Nerys Myk]

Blue means alternate reality. If you had said hazel it would be an altered timeline.

 

[Disillusioned]

- Vulcan always had the blue sky during certains seasons we simply never saw.

Not something I'm buying, sorry. I find it extremely unlikely that we've only seen Vulcan at dawn or dusk.

- The City where Spock was being tutored was simply never seen before.

So? I never even mentioned this, just the planet.

- The sequence where Spock sees Vulcan implode was from a Mind Meld, and may have been more about Spock's knowledge of the event than how he actually saw it.

A planet looks the way it looks.

- San Francisco looked different because city planning proceeded upon a different path than in past depictions of 23rd Century San Francisco, and the city was never seen in the 2255-2258 timeframe anyway.

Sulu described San Francisco as looking almost the same as it was in the mid-1980s. And why exactly would the sudden appearance of a giant space octopus cause a radical change in city planning on a planet that was no where near the incident to begin with? I see no reason for the Enterprise to have ended up being designed the way it was because of that incident, let alone city planning.

Beyond the above points, nothing seen in the movie has been depicted in the rest of Star Trek canon.

But comparisons can still be made, such as the Kelvin against anything seen during the TOS era. The Kelvin shares both size and design feature architecture with the redesigned Enterprise, but doesn't have a lot in common with anything from TOS.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

This kind of discussion is why I feel so much at home watching The Big Bang Theory.

I suppose I really ought to watch that, one of these times.

You should. Half the show is about the characters arguing about Star Trek. They're us! One of them tries to comfort the other citing the scene from the new film where Kirk winds up Spock on the bridge, and the other one goes "waah, I missed Comic Con and the new Star Trek movie!"

It's hilarious.

 

[M'Sharak]

This kind of discussion is why I feel so much at home watching The Big Bang Theory.

I suppose I really ought to watch that, one of these times.

You should. Half the show is about the characters arguing about Star Trek. They're us! One of them tries to comfort the other citing the scene from the new film where Kirk winds up Spock on the bridge, and the other one goes "waah, I missed Comic Con and the new Star Trek movie!"

It's hilarious.

I did see that scene -- someone here posted a link. I also saw the Evil Wil Wheaton scene not too long ago. It sounds like they have a lot of fun with stuff on that show.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

God, that was so funny! I love that character Sheldon, he's my hero. If I ever have a son, I'll name him after that guy (the second one being named after Reese from Malcolm in the Middle ).

Seriously though, the show is filled with ST jokes, such as the "rock paper scissors lizard Spock" bit. I think it's a must see for people like us.

 

[Meredith]

Maybe when both Nero and Spock came through the Black hole they took readings and it analyzed the quantum frequency of matter in the matter in the interstellar dust and it concluded they were in a different universe and Spock and Nero both knew they could make any changes and it wouldn't affect THEIR timeline....

"James Kirk was a great man, but that was a different life."

Exactly, maybe the type of Black Hole created by "red matter" doesn't lead to a singularity but is more like a wormhole.... One that might as well be a Singularity because it leads to a alternate universe. Could explain why so little of it is needed to make the "Black Hole".

 

[OneBuckFilms]

- Vulcan always had the blue sky during certains seasons we simply never saw.

Not something I'm buying, sorry. I find it extremely unlikely that we've only seen Vulcan at dawn or dusk.

- The City where Spock was being tutored was simply never seen before.

So? I never even mentioned this, just the planet.


A planet looks the way it looks.

- San Francisco looked different because city planning proceeded upon a different path than in past depictions of 23rd Century San Francisco, and the city was never seen in the 2255-2258 timeframe anyway.

Sulu described San Francisco as looking almost the same as it was in the mid-1980s. And why exactly would the sudden appearance of a giant space octopus cause a radical change in city planning on a planet that was no where near the incident to begin with? I see no reason for the Enterprise to have ended up being designed the way it was because of that incident, let alone city planning.

Beyond the above points, nothing seen in the movie has been depicted in the rest of Star Trek canon.

But comparisons can still be made, such as the Kelvin against anything seen during the TOS era. The Kelvin shares both size and design feature architecture with the redesigned Enterprise, but doesn't have a lot in common with anything from TOS.

Okay, Vulcan: Buy it or not, we haven't seen as much of the planet as would be necessary to conclude either way. Besides, ST:TMP had a VERY different take on it (How many moons? Where's the atmosphere?), though the Directors Edition corrected it.

Sulu described the San Francisco he knew from the other reality. His description is irrelelvent.

The Narada's appearance COULD in theory change things a great deal. Again, we don't know what happened to the architects, engineers etc. who were inspired by things indirectly over the 25 years since it appeared.

It's the Butterfly Effect.

The reasons the Enterprise was different do not need to be spelled out, and you can't tell me that between TOS and TMP, a space of 6 years, all of Starfleet made a massive migration fromt he primary colors to what we saw after the Refit, and the Enterprise looking so COMPLETELY different in many ways. Yet we accept this. Suddenly, the Klingons had ridges !!! Starfleet had metallic walls everywhere !!! The computer and signing style completely changed !!! Uniforms everywhere changed from the TOS Colored Shirt/Pants to Gray/Brown jumpsuits !!!

And how many looks has Vulcan had when seen from Orbit?

If we can accept THESE changes, then the Enterprise size/style change suddenly is not that implausible.

 

[M'Sharak]

God, that was so funny! I love that character Sheldon, he's my hero. If I ever have a son, I'll name him after that guy (the second one being named after Reese from Malcolm in the Middle ).

Seriously though, the show is filled with ST jokes, such as the "rock paper scissors lizard Spock" bit. I think it's a must see for people like us.

I think I've also seen the "RPSLS" scene. My TV-watching is practically at zero these days, but I'll try to check some more of the show out.

Meanwhile, we'd probably better let them have their topic back.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Topic, topic, what is topic!

 

[JarodRussell]

It makes absolutely no sense at all to assume that the Narada attack on the Kelvin changed the entire skyline of San Francisco. The Butterfly Effect is not black magic.

If Sulu from the Prime Timeline says 1980s San Francisco looks like in the 23rd century, than that's a pretty hard fact. And then all the various scenes where there are no such friggin huge skyscrapers in San Francisco. TOS movies, various DS9 and VOY episodes have Downtown San Francisco and the area around the SF headquarters looking pretty much unchanged.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

Sulu said "it doesn't look all that different," meaning it was recognizable to him as San Francisco. You know, with that Golden Gate bridge, etc. Also, this was a view from the air...at night. It's not like he was walking down the street he grew up on.

And there is far less consistency to the previous portrayals of SF in Trek than you seem to think. Pretty much the only constant elements are the Bridge and maybe the TransAmerica building.

 

[JarodRussell]

Sulu said "it doesn't look all that different," meaning it was recognizable to him as San Francisco. You know, with that Golden Gate bridge, etc. Also, this was a view from the air...at night. It's not like he was walking down the street he grew up on.

And there is far less consistency to the previous portrayals of SF in Trek than you seem to think. Pretty much the only constant elements are the Bridge and maybe the TransAmerica building.

Think realistic. When you say something doesn't look all that different, then it isn't that different. At least I do that. Or I am being sarcastic, but Sulu wasn't.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

It makes absolutely no sense at all to assume that the Narada attack on the Kelvin changed the entire skyline of San Francisco. The Butterfly Effect is not black magic.

If Sulu from the Prime Timeline says 1980s San Francisco looks like in the 23rd century, than that's a pretty hard fact. And then all the various scenes where there are no such friggin huge skyscrapers in San Francisco. TOS movies, various DS9 and VOY episodes have Downtown San Francisco and the area around the SF headquarters looking pretty much unchanged.

It is a pretty hard fact. But not in the Alternate Reality.

How much of 23rd-24th Century San Francisco did we see?

How many times have we seen San Francisco in 2258?

 

[OneBuckFilms]

Sulu said "it doesn't look all that different," meaning it was recognizable to him as San Francisco. You know, with that Golden Gate bridge, etc. Also, this was a view from the air...at night. It's not like he was walking down the street he grew up on.

And there is far less consistency to the previous portrayals of SF in Trek than you seem to think. Pretty much the only constant elements are the Bridge and maybe the TransAmerica building.

Think realistic. When you say something doesn't look all that different, then it isn't that different. At least I do that. Or I am being sarcastic, but Sulu wasn't.

Or Sulu from the Prime Timeline saw a different San Francisco to the 2255-2258 Alternate Reality.

I go by the simplest explanation and on-screen/in-dialogue evidence, not on percieved plausibility.

Starfleet completely changed it's style, consistently and completely, in the space of 6 years.

A skyline can, and sometimes does, completely change in the space of 25 years.

 

[JarodRussell]

It makes absolutely no sense at all to assume that the Narada attack on the Kelvin changed the entire skyline of San Francisco. The Butterfly Effect is not black magic.

If Sulu from the Prime Timeline says 1980s San Francisco looks like in the 23rd century, than that's a pretty hard fact. And then all the various scenes where there are no such friggin huge skyscrapers in San Francisco. TOS movies, various DS9 and VOY episodes have Downtown San Francisco and the area around the SF headquarters looking pretty much unchanged.

It is a pretty hard fact. But not in the Alternate Reality.

How much of 23rd-24th Century San Francisco did we see?

How many times have we seen San Francisco in 2258?

Yeah, but what is supposed to change the skyline in the Alternate Reality (except the concept artist, lol)? In my opinion, Nero's attack is not enough. The Kelvin is just a spaceship with 800 officers. If you sink an aircraft carrier, it will have no effect on how the skyline of New York will look.

 

[Shazam!]

The change in skyline, Vulcan and the other thousand or so inconsistencies is the result of the writers fucking it up and/or taking artistic and creative liberties as opposed to respecting what had come before.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

It makes absolutely no sense at all to assume that the Narada attack on the Kelvin changed the entire skyline of San Francisco. The Butterfly Effect is not black magic.

If Sulu from the Prime Timeline says 1980s San Francisco looks like in the 23rd century, than that's a pretty hard fact. And then all the various scenes where there are no such friggin huge skyscrapers in San Francisco. TOS movies, various DS9 and VOY episodes have Downtown San Francisco and the area around the SF headquarters looking pretty much unchanged.

It is a pretty hard fact. But not in the Alternate Reality.

How much of 23rd-24th Century San Francisco did we see?

How many times have we seen San Francisco in 2258?

Yeah, but what is supposed to change the skyline in the Alternate Reality (except the concept artist, lol)? In my opinion, Nero's attack is not enough. The Kelvin is just a spaceship with 800 officers. If you sink an aircraft carrier, it will have no effect on how the skyline of New York will look.

There's more to it than that:
- Kelvin has shuttles
- Shuttles have sensors
- Starfleet has investigators and Engineers
- Engineers can look at those scans and get ideas
- The ideas mean different individuals are doing different things
- That leads to all of the differences seen over 25 years since.

This is not as far-fetched as the sudden appearances of Ridges on Klingons, or Starfleet's change of style to the point of being almost unrecognizable in 6 years.

Why do you accept one, but not the other? That is illogical, and strikes me as being based on a personal bias.

If past Trek is the standard, let it BE the standard.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

The change in skyline, Vulcan and the other thousand or so inconsistencies is the result of the writers fucking it up and/or taking artistic and creative liberties as opposed to respecting what had come before.

Okay, then the Enterprise should be lit with Primary colors, and Vulcan should look exactly like the lit-walled set we saw in Amok Time.

The respected it by knowing what had to change to make it more convincing on screen.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Sulu said "it doesn't look all that different," meaning it was recognizable to him as San Francisco. You know, with that Golden Gate bridge, etc. Also, this was a view from the air...at night. It's not like he was walking down the street he grew up on.

And there is far less consistency to the previous portrayals of SF in Trek than you seem to think. Pretty much the only constant elements are the Bridge and maybe the TransAmerica building.

Moreover, all of the crew must've spent sometime in 23rd century San Francisco during their tenure at Starfleet Academy, and still it wasn't all that familiar to many of them once they got groundside. After all, Uhura and Chekov didn't know where Alameda was.

 

[Shazam!]

The change in skyline, Vulcan and the other thousand or so inconsistencies is the result of the writers fucking it up and/or taking artistic and creative liberties as opposed to respecting what had come before.

Okay, then the Enterprise should be lit with Primary colors, and Vulcan should look exactly like the lit-walled set we saw in Amok Time.

The respected it by knowing what had to change to make it more convincing on screen.

ie. creative liberties. Like I said.

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