"All Good Things..." vs. Star Trek: Generations

[TroiFan4ever]

Forgive me. I know there've been several threads about this in the past but I kind of feel the need right now. I know I'm probably in the minority but I felt the movie Star Trek: Generations was better than "All Good Things..." and please allow me to explain why I think so:

For one thing, there's this dynamic to all this where the two-part episode "All Good Things..." was the series finale to Star Trek: The Next Generation, the television series, yet despite that the series has ended, there is a feature film taking place about less than a year AFTER "All Good Things...", the TNG finale. That dynamic felt like the TNG saga never even ended! That, especially when after Star Trek: Generations came First Contact, Insurrection, and Nemesis.

Also, to me, Star Trek: Generations felt more like a TNG finale than "All Good Things...", and actually ended the TNG saga better, which made the three succeeding TNG feature films feel that much more bland and mediocre. Allow me to elaborate on this: "All Good Things..." primarily focused on Q taking Picard through three different time zones, giving him the opportunity to prevent a dangerous space anomaly from annihilating all of mankind. Star Trek: Generations on the other hand was about Picard and Captain Kirk teaming up to defeat a mad scientist trying to enter a space nexus at the expense of life in that section of the galaxy. Also, Star Trek: Generations was EPIC! I mean, I never get tired of watching that scene with the saucer section of the Enterprise-D crashing into Veridian 4. Not only that but there were some things that happened in that movie that of course never happened in the television series: the sun-lighting; seeing some crew members wearing the DS9/VOY-style uniforms and all of them wearing the DS9/VOY-style commbadges; Data getting his emotions chip again and being goofy; the Klingon ship's firepower eating right through the shields; Troi at the helm; Data swearing; and the crossover with TOS and TNG, and also that scene at the end of the movie with Troi helping Data find Spot is a very emotional, tear-jerker, and I'm not talking about in the sad variety! The producers seemed to have gone all-out with Generations just because it was a theatrical major motion picture and rightly so! Of course Kirk and Picard teaming up never happened in "All Good Things..." but after that episode!

Am I saying Star Trek: Generations was perfect? No! Not by a long stretch! Of course there are things that could've happened that would've made it a whole lot better; like it being more action-packed... and maybe including the deleted scenes from the crash sequence. I'm not even bashing "All Good Things..." or at least that's not my intent at all. But still... after having watched "All Good Things..." on H&I the two nights before, Star Trek: Generations feels way more superior than the "All Good Things..." whereas "All Good Things..." just felt like a two-part episode just to wrap up the television series, especially when none of the epicness that I've described above happened in "All Good Things..."

Of course everybody else is entitled to their personal opinions just as I am to mine, but I could never understand why the majority, even the writers themselves, favored "All Good Things..." over Star Trek: Generations, and I'd like for those who favored "All Good Things..." over Star Trek: Generations to share why they feel that it was better than the movie.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

I kind of think of AGT as a TNG's Greatest Hits moreso than a finale. Generations, for sure, felt like a finale. I love both, but feel AGT was a more solid outing and I enjoyed it more.

 

[marsh8472]

Yeah Star Trek Generations was better. They spent more money on Generations and we see Kirk meeting Picard and the end of Enterprise-D felt like there was more closure there. It feels like comparing TOS "Turnabout Intruder" with Star Trek 2 the wrath of khan (I'm pretending star trek the motion picture doesn't exist for the sake of the analogy)

 

[Mojochi]

Agree to disagree. Generations isn't a finale at all. It's primary intention was to begin a new era of films that had been passed on from the previous cast, & it was so patched together that they couldn't even score the big 3 from that cast to reprise their roles. So awkward was that, that they end up with Chekov filling in down in sickbay, because they were still riding off the script edition that must've had Bones doing it

"Kirk meets Picard" was pretty thrown together for the sake of itself too. This movie isn't about the 2 of them teaming up. It's a few minutes of Kirk being pulled out of plot hole absurdity to save Picard's neck in a fist fight... a fist... fight. After which they just crash & burn him the same way they do the TNG series Enterprise

I don't want to get harping on it too badly, being folks here like it. It's a fun ride, with plenty of entertainment value, but I think AGT... did a wonderful job of finishing out the actual series, with nods to relationships that had been built, like Worf & Troi, memories of characters lost, like Yar, & glimpses into potential futures for these people

Not to mention that the actual story bookends what the whole series began with, humanity on trial, defending its place & purpose in the universe, with hints at where it's going. Couldn't ask for better than that IMHO. AGT was the end of the show we'd watched. GEN was the beginning of something else, if you ask me

 

[Noname Given]

Yeah Star Trek Generations was better. They spent more money on Generations and we see Kirk meeting Picard and the end of Enterprise-D felt like there was more closure there. It feels like comparing TOS "Turnabout Intruder" with Star Trek 2 the wrath of khan (I'm pretending star trek the motion picture doesn't exist for the sake of the analogy)

^^^
I'm the exact opposite. I feel "All Good Things" would have made the better feature film; and it was "Generations" that came off as a sub-standard TNG TV episode.

Hell, they SET UP a reason for Picard to want to leave the Nexus at an earlier time - with the scene of him hearing about his Nephew's death in a fire - and just totally drop that thread of the film. Picard is shown grieving heavily for a bit, and we never get anything further relating to it in the film.

Also, even Guinan said she had problems with leaving the Nexus and didn't want to (and wouldn't have if given a choice) - but when the film gets to that point NEITHER Picard or Kirk really have much of an issue leaving (again Hell, they COULD have had Picard doing something with his nephew and being glad he's alive again; but we just get some weird 'English Christmas' scene (which is also hilarious since the character of Jean Luc Picard is SUPPOSED to be French); it's was all so blatantly easy and predictable it was like it was nothing to leave.

"All Good Things" was at least interesting to watch, and had a lot of good character moments and I'd have loved what they could have done with a motion picture budget.

Generations was 'by the numbers TNG TV' and honestly wouldn't have even made that good of a TV episode EVEN IF Shatner was in it. Hell, I figure BOTH Moore and Braga had a brain fart because you brought Kirk back and didn't have him doing the ONLY thing he knows how too do well - Command a Starship. here you had an opportunity to set up something where Kirk either has to take command of the 1701-D OR you get BOTH crews (the original 1701 and 17-01-D) working together using both ships, but no, they choose a lackluster tropish plot, and don't even handle elements they set up in that plot well (IE Picard's nephew's death or the 'difficulty' of leaving the Nexus.)

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

Every time I rewatch GEN I list off every thing that bugs the crap out of me at every turn. I imagine scenarios in which the movie could be better or at least make some sense. I get heartbroken and upset that they kill off Robert and Rene in such a gruesome way for what amounts to exactly no reason (other than kind of justify Picard's turn to action hero? Maybe? That's a stretch).. Wasting any meaningful commentary on emotions or what they mean in terms of Data and his journey.. Giving most of the cast barely anything to do except move the plot along.. How unsatisfying anything on the back half was: BoP fight, the nature of the Nexus, the fight with Soran, Kirk's death.. all of it.

But...I still watch it at least once a year and I still love watching it even though its not even close to perfect. I don't even consider it a good movie, let alone a good Star Trek movie... but here I am. And it's not even like how I watch TFF now and then for a laugh.. I genuinely enjoy GEN. Love the Enterprise-B, love the story that spans generations, love stellar cartography and the only part of the movie where Data addressing his emotions has any meaning, loved all the performances (but not always the writing), and shame on me I also loved the Data comic relief (but hate that it is used in place of actual development). However, AGT is a perfect piece of TV for me. I have absolutely no complaints on it.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I think Generations is overhated but I think AGT was the perfect finale.

 

[Lance]

I'm repeating things from another recent thread But for me, "All Good Things..." strengths are that it's time jumping format invites us to look at how far TNG and its characters have grown and developed in seven years, as well as getting a hint of where they'll be seven years from now In that way, it's almost the most perfectly constructed finale to a series that's ever been made. It's got so many moments like it, but the one that comes to my mind is Past!Data not understanding analogies, then a scene later we're back in the present and Data drops an analogy about Picard and Q. It's a subtle moment that actually shows how far Data has come. Same with the whole 'humanity on trial' thing. We're invited to reconsider the events of "Encounter At Farpoint", and the final note, Q saying the entire seven seasons have been a test and that the journey of humanity is far from complete, is just beautiful. It ties everything up while keeping a nicely optimistic tone.

"Generations" does act as a cork stopper on Next Generation. It blows up the ship and has a lot of things that feel like a line being drawn through the series. But for my money, it is a much darker end. For that reason, I find "All Good Things..." far more palatable

 

[criscodisco]

The first time I watched AGT was when I was 15 and at the halfway point when Q says "may whatever god you believe in save you now" my mom managed to catch her whole head on fire (long story) and for that it gets my vote.

 

[TroiFan4ever]

I will always stand by my preference for GEN over "All Good Things..." but for one thing, I can understand the disliking for GEN, and why people like "All Good Things..." over it, the reason being is that even to me, GEN did feel kind of like some generic, cheezy sci-fi (Trek aside for the moment) movie about two heroes trying to stop a mad scientist from destroying the universe or something to that effect.

Additionally, as much as I really wanted to ignore FC, INS, and NEM for the moment, I do also feel the need to address this: I only half-agree with what Mojochi said about GEN not being a finale, but rather a movie that began an era of new Trek films, none of which met the standards of likability that GEN succeeded in doing for me.

GEN earns points in my book because even as much as I love the Galaxy-Class starship, I was sad to see it be destroyed but in an interesting way, because by doing so, it closed the door on the previous seven-year-era of TV TNG as we all knew it, and then opened a new door for the Enterprise-D crew to have a new U.S.S. Enterprise starship and new uniforms, whereas if they would've kept the same starship and uniforms for the succeeding three films post-GEN they all would've failed even more as it would've felt redundant. Granted, I am not at all a fan of the Sovereign-Class starship; I don't really care for its design. But it was interesting to see the crew wear the uniforms the DS9 crew started wearing from "Rapture" on. But I do see where Mojochi was coming from with that regard.

This is where I'll go slightly off-topic: the other reason why GEN gets high praises from me is because — and forgive me if it sounds like I'm repeating what I already said in the OP but — GEN was pretty much Star Trek TNG the Movie... on the big screen... when TNG had supposedly ended at "All Good Things..." making it feel like the series never really ended. I don't remember having had the luxury of seeing GEN on the big-screen when I was four years old when GEN was first released, but I do recall not paying that much attention to the post-GEN TNG films. As a child, I was put off by the Enterprise-E not looking as good as the D. But now as an adult, I still can't see myself devoting the time to watch INS and NEM unless they happen to air on television and there's nothing else on because their plots weren't strong enough to captivate my attention for the duration of their runtimes. FC? Sure. I like the Borg plot that one had. I recently learned Quark did cameo in INS but his scene was cut out. That said, I do like FC but not as much as GEN so if anything, I'd watch GEN and FC and pretend that INS and NEM don't exist. I did find the climax of NEM interesting though.

 

[JesterFace]

I think 'All Good Things...' wraps up the TNG story, humanity's trial, very nicely. Perfect final episode.

No one should get offended when I say that I think 'Generations' is just bad. Really bad.
Hard to believe that the same guys write something as great as AGT and then come up with 'Generations'.

we see Kirk meeting Picard

Was that even necessary? Yeah, they're Trek captains but there's no need to get them together.

 

[Noname Given]

I think 'All Good Things...' wraps up the TNG story, humanity's trial, very nicely. Perfect final episode.

No one should get offended when I say that I think 'Generations' is just bad. Really bad.
Hard to believe that the same guys write something as great as AGT and then come up with 'Generations'.

^^^
Problem is - they didn't. They were writing BOTH AT THE SAME time (listen to some of their commentaries on this) - and at times even forgot which one they were writing for (IE they got confused). - and unfortunately, I'm NOT kidding here.

 

[Makarov]

For me the lighting and tone of the movie is so different in Generations that it doesn't quite feel like the same ship from the show was being destroyed. Because of that it didn't quite feel like closing a door on the show

I like both these days but AGT was the perfect ending to the show imo

 

[JesterFace]

Problem is - they didn't. They were writing BOTH AT THE SAME time (listen to some of their commentaries on this) - and at times even forgot which one they were writing for (IE they got confused). - and unfortunately, I'm NOT kidding here.

Someone could say that is unprofessional.. BUT fortunately they got one of them right, that being the final episode.

For me the lighting and tone of the movie is so different in Generations that it doesn't quite feel like the same ship from the show was being destroyed. Because of that it didn't quite feel like closing a door on the show

I like both these days but AGT was the perfect ending to the show imo

Yup, 'Generations' is trying to be "movielike" and changes a lot of things. Not very succesfully, IMO.

For me TNG ends with AGT, like said above, perfect ending. The movies were unnecessary, kind of ruined TNG legacy.

And it's OK if you like the movies, I just don't like them.

 

[STEPhon IT]

For me the lighting and tone of the movie is so different in Generations that it doesn't quite feel like the same ship from the show was being destroyed. Because of that it didn't quite feel like closing a door on the show

I like both these days but AGT was the perfect ending to the show imo

Yeah, I felt Paramount Pictures forgot to pay the electric bill.

 

[Qonundrum]

I agree, GEN feels more like a TV episode (but not a bad one! Even better if plot holes were resolved before filming. It even has that season 1 gimmick of a child dropping a teddy bear for... drama!!) and ATG has a cinematic quality to it. One that none of the TNG films had, IMHO...

And I liked GEN's lighting. The Enterprise-D never looked more cool on the inside. The bridge is no longer a beige hotel foyer! There is depth! Shadow detail! Atmosphere! Not light reflections needing black cardboard going over panels to hide, though seasons 3-7 did fix most of those problems and still had the bright bright glow of a grocery store.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

As others have mentioned "All Good Things" (S7E25/26) and "Star Trek VII: Generations" were, by design, meant to serve different purposes and in no way should be put in a position of "versus."

AGT was a series finale designed to bookend "Encounter At Farpoint" and bring closure to a definite chapter in the saga of The Next Generation. It added a context and scope to the syndicated television run. It gave the entire series a sense of evolution and that is what made it brilliant and something no other series has ever equaled.

Star Trek: Generations was meant to usher in a new cinematic chapter in the TNG saga. Unfortunately this were Paramount started a decade of impatience and over-exploitation. Where they should have concentrated solely on concluding the TV series and then begin the process of crafting a motion picture they instead tried to ride two horses simultaneously. In that environment AGT fared much better then Generations.

Generations also should never have even bothered working James T. Kirk into the storyline, but sadly were under the misguided belief they required some type of cinematic transition. They didn't. The chief problem with feeling obligated to inject Kirk into the mix lay in it ultimately being a no-win scenario. Why go down such a divisive path when you could avoid it all the easier and be better off for it?

Again, because Paramount never gave it it's own space and needlessly rushed it for which the overall production suffered. Not the worst of the Star Trek movies by any stretch, but it was mediocre. Because of the studios refusal to ever step back and take a breath where Star Trek was concerned TNG's track record at the box office was, overall, underwhelming with one really good feature (First Contact), one mediocre (Generations) and two abysmal (Insurrection and Nemesis).

The TOS films had 3 really good features (The Wrath of Kahn, The Voyage Home, and The Undiscovered Country), two mediocre (The Motion Picture, The Search For Spock), and one abysmal (The Final Frontier).

Also what started working against Star Trek movies was Rick Berman and the studios intransigently narrow ideal of what a Star Trek TV series or motion picture could or should be (sadly, still very much in evidence today with 3 nearly identical formulaic back-to-back-to-back Kelvin universe films). For some reason Paramount has been chasing the monkey that is Star Trek II: The Wrath of Kahn since 1993 (despite evidence they could find success with a variety of story types).

So Generations short comings are not a result of direct comparison to TNG's television finale, but rather because of Paramount's resistance to respect the integrity and appreciate what it is they have with Star Trek. To this day they do not understand the magic of it's appeal.

 

[Mojochi]

Problem is - they didn't. They were writing BOTH AT THE SAME time (listen to some of their commentaries on this) - and at times even forgot which one they were writing for (IE they got confused). - and unfortunately, I'm NOT kidding here.

Someone could say that is unprofessional.. BUT fortunately they got one of them right, that being the final episode.

Honestly, I'd call it spreading themselves too thin, because as much as I like AGT... way more than GEN, honestly, I actually think that the TNG finale could also have been much better than it was. It does seem rushed to production. There's a lot of throwaway stuff. Geordi marries Leah Brahms? Worf & Riker have a grudge over a dead Deanna? Does Data have emotions in this future or not? It's a little sloppy on the surrounding stuff, & even the Q/Picard main concept is not the best thing they could've come up with. Frankly, the notion of Q dumping Picard around in time is still fresh from Tapestry. Basically, it's not about him lousing up his own life by tinkering in his past, but it IS about him lousing up human history by tinkering around in the future. That's not much of a difference really, for him to have had such a hard time... in time... this time

However, I do get the impression that this finale was something of a surprise, that they weren't entirely planning for, so they just had to wing it & get something together, & if that is the case, then they did about as well as anyone could, & it is enjoyable & memorable. It could have been a more thoughtful story though, if they'd had more time & preparation

I get the same impression from Generations. Winging it. Trying to find ways to make everybody happy

 

[Lance]

'Generations' is trying to be "movielike" and changes a lot of things. Not very succesfully, IMO.

My problem with the changes is more that it all feels like surface detail. I used to love the new bridge design with its side consoles and such, but on reflection I feel the changes do nothing but make the bridge look *too* busy. The bridge on TV looked huge mainly because it took away all those unnecessary consoles and background artistes running about the place, but on the big screen, ironically, the same set looks *smaller*, because the command chairs have all been raised (no longer in a pit at the bottom of the horseshoe), and Worf has got a chair (so he no longer looms tall in the background of shots), the new side stations make the ramp between top and bottom smaller, and the addition of people to man all of those stations causes the whole bridge to feel cluttered. All of this combines to giving the illusion of the bridge being really tight to walk around in. I think it looks better on TV, 'hotel foyer lighting' and all

 

[Paradise City]

The most annoying thing about AGT is they didn't actualise the tension with the Romulans. You've got the late, great Andreas Katsulas on the books, you give him something to do and you make it menacing. Instead his dialogue is almost light hearted. It's an understandable thing with only a certain amount of time available to fit everything in of course but nevertheless...as a viewer it is what I see.

For Generations, they seemed not to know what to do with Kirk at all and the treatment of him is all a bit too breezy and thin. These were TNG writers who were in their element writing for the TNG characters but got a bit of cold feet or writers block in trying to deal with Kirk properly. Then once Kirk met his demise, they are back at their best with some eloquent and poignant dialogue with the discovery of spot the cat! It ballasts an otherwise very decent film for me.