Spoilers Alan Van Sprang officially joins Season 2 as...

[XCV330]

Just because they're fictional doesn't make them any less significant within the confines of the universe. They've been shown to be hard to find, difficult - even pernicious - to extract and process, and of finite quantity. That's like the definition of scarcity. Hell, they dedicated a whole film to the potential catastrophic and existential repercussions of a society losing its main source of dilithium.

And, as I always point out when one of these silly arguments arises, you can't replicate dilithium or deuterium or whatever the hell else the wegottafindit of the week is.

Which brings us back to J.'s initial point. To maintain the illusion of paradise on Earth, the Federation has to get that stuff from somewhere. They're passing the buck. So while a dumbass on Earth who broke his arm orbital skydiving can transport into any corner clinic and get it mended for "free," someone is paying the tab. And those usual "someones" are the newly embraced societies with whom the Fed extends a hand of friendship.

There's no reason to believe zero sum economics is anything more than a fallacy in a post-scarcity economy. There just aren't enough scarce things to explain their value. The economy has never been explained sufficiently, anyway. So the idea that joining civilizations are paying for their turn at the grand replicator of life doesn't entirely ring true.

For all we could imagine, the Feds might use something like China's new Social Credit system. Risking life and limb in Starfleet might not appeal much to genteel Federation society, but it will get your ass in a nice Frisco condo with a view of the Bay, no questions asked, and you get to practically behave like a 19th century heathen while you're out there defending I mean doing science stuff for the federation. Even a screwballp like Barclay got the condo. Don't like it? There's always some grungy colony to go try and get a new start on civ building with. You may end up seeing half your colony wiped out by a madman when the harvest fails and Starfleet is two days late with the bread van, but you'll have tried. You will have tried.

The poor bastard vacuuming in the background in TWOK probably slept through school, farted on his only shuttle ride and posted rude comments about the Federation election on social media.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Not at all. There literally is no tab. That's what "post-scarcity" means.

And the point of the exercise It's not post-scarcity. The whole concept is delusional pie-in-the-sky nonsense. It only "works" in Star Trek because of magic. And that magic has strings.

 

[lawman]

Well, in the Clarkean sense that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, yeah. And obviously Star Trek is not a thesis on sociology or economics; the details are left off-screen.

But it's not "delusional pie-in-the-sky nonsense" by any means. On the contrary, it's pretty much inevitable (much like one-world government) if we continue advancing as a civilization and don't succumb to some sort of corporate neo-feudalism.

Hell, we're already getting close to a post-scarcity scenario in some ways today, in developed countries like the U.S., in the sense that we have a level of efficient productivity that can produce a surplus of goods and services (not just necessities, but lots of luxuries too) without requiring anything close to the full-time labor input of the adult workforce. The thing is, we haven't figured out a new economic paradigm yet to deal with it... and most of those in power aren't even trying... so the current paradigm is allowing for increasing levels of wealth concentration, which is clearly dysfunctional.

We keep looking back to the mid-20th-century as some kind of economic golden age, but it was just a brief period of coincidental alignment when the demand for goods and services closely matched the available supply of labor (and other resources, like technology), providing for relatively full employment and a broad-based increase in standards of living. We've tried to prop up the old paradigm with an increasing proportion of bullshit jobs, but that'll only get us so far. There's nothing inevitable about supply and demand matching up that way, and the imbalance will only increase with trends in technology pushing productivity ever higher... so we need a new paradigm, unless we want to let a greedy few hoard all of society's resources (or suffer either a technology crash or a population crash). Capitalism is pathological and unsustainable in the long term. What comes next isn't entirely clear yet in the real world, but obviously the Federation has figured it out.

 

[CorporalClegg]

No.

 

[fireproof78]

obviously the Federation has figured it out.

Obviously? I am no economics expert, but the larger point is that we don't see a lot of the interplanetary economics, or even day to day of the Federation citizens. So, I still don't feel like "The Federation as it figured out" is any different that, as you reference, the "magic tech" explanation.

But, what do I know? I majored in social sciences.

 

[lawman]

Economics is a social science! (It's certainly not a natural one...)

 

[fireproof78]

Economics is a social science! (It's certainly not a natural one...)

That's the joke...

 

[Tenacity]

The Federation is not a capitalist society,

It's not like we saw businesses in the Federation. Corporations in the Federation. Selling of property in the Federation. Buying of products in the Federation.

Right?

 

[lawman]

On the whole, we didn't. I remember that Picard's family ran a winery, and Sisko's dad ran a restaurant, but there was never any indication that activities like these were necessary to "make a living," much less the basis of the economy. They came across more like indulgent hobbies for those of old-fashioned tastes.

 

[CorporalClegg]

Because when I think of hobbies I think of shucking clams.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

It's not like we saw businesses in the Federation. Corporations in the Federation. Selling of property in the Federation. Buying of products in the Federation.

There's the Dytallix Mining Corporation, shown (or at least mentioned) in the first season of TNG.

 

[ITDUDE]

On the whole, we didn't. I remember that Picard's family ran a winery, and Sisko's dad ran a restaurant, but there was never any indication that activities like these were necessary to "make a living," much less the basis of the economy. They came across more like indulgent hobbies for those of old-fashioned tastes.

If running a winery is a hobby (a full time task, I am sure), then what do people do exactly for WORK? Sartfleet is work, dangerous work for sure. If people do not HAVE to work, then how does Starfleet exist? Volunteers only? Why do people even WANT to work, if they can spend all their time doing hobby like things?

 

[Verteron]

I'm new to this news (having had a personal hiatus from Star Trek for a few weeks), however, I find it interesting he's a Trill. Most near-cannon sources put Trill's membership in the Federation as fairly recent, long after TOS and Discovery, maybe in the 2270s. I guess the TV universe reserves the right to rewrite cannon whenever it wants, but this means a few books might sound less authentic now.

 

[CorporalClegg]

If running a winery is a hobby (a full time task, I am sure), then what do people do exactly for WORK? Sartfleet is work, dangerous work for sure. If people do not HAVE to work, then how does Starfleet exist? Volunteers only? Why do people even WANT to work, if they can spend all their time doing hobby like things?

This argument doesn't hold any water either. Most Firemen don't choose to run into the burning building because it's the only good pay they could find.

 

[lawman]

If running a winery is a hobby (a full time task, I am sure), then what do people do exactly for WORK? Sartfleet is work, dangerous work for sure. If people do not HAVE to work, then how does Starfleet exist? Volunteers only? Why do people even WANT to work, if they can spend all their time doing hobby like things?

People don't have to work in the Federation. That's what the whole post-scarcity/utopian thing is about. They live to work, rather than working to live, as the saying goes: they do whatever they take a liking to and have the talent for, whether it's cooking food for people or tending heirloom grapevines or exploring the frontiers of outer space or fill-in-the-blank. They're free to choose based on intrinsic motivations, rather than extrinsic ones, as CorporalClegg's example illustrates.

 

[ITDUDE]

This argument doesn't hold any water either. Most Firemen don't choose to run into the burning building because it's the only good pay they could find.

Last I checked fireman salary is around $80k in Bay Area on average (or sometimes over $200k). That's $40/hour plus they definitely get overtime. That's A LOT of money for many people, and yes, they would go into a fire for this much money. So what exactly is the reason to go on a ship and be blown away by enemy of week in Starfleet, if money is not a thing to worry about?

 

[cultcross]

It works great as long as someone's motivation in life is waste extraction. The problem comes when people don't want to do certain jobs - how do you offer an inventive when there's no additional reward, and they could live perfectly well not doing it. There'll always be someone who wants to be a hero even for free - there are volunteer emergency services the world over. But you've got to find someone to do mundane, dirty and boring jobs too. Plus inspire innovation and creativity without the competitive drive of money making.

I've always maintained that the writers in 21st century America lack the language and reference points to describe a post scarcity economy, because we've never seen one to base it on. Plus there is a need to make it accessible to an audience familiar with transactional economic interactions, trading, buying and selling. So the economics of Star Trek become a handwave, and in themselves a kind of advanced magic you don't think too hard about.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I'm new to this news (having had a personal hiatus from Star Trek for a few weeks), however, I find it interesting he's a Trill. Most near-cannon sources put Trill's membership in the Federation as fairly recent, long after TOS and Discovery, maybe in the 2270s. I guess the TV universe reserves the right to rewrite cannon whenever it wants, but this means a few books might sound less authentic now.

He's not. The Trill spots are just a holographic disguise. MU Georgiou calls him out as a fake Trill in seconds, though that was primarily based on his gait and manner of speech, which are somehow noticeably different from other Trills to her.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm new to this news (having had a personal hiatus from Star Trek for a few weeks), however, I find it interesting he's a Trill. Most near-cannon sources put Trill's membership in the Federation as fairly recent, long after TOS and Discovery, maybe in the 2270s. I guess the TV universe reserves the right to rewrite cannon whenever it wants, but this means a few books might sound less authentic now.

What do the canon sources say about when Trill joined the Federation? IIRC, they don't say anything. The TV universe is the canon. The books, not so much. Anyway why Trill have to be a Federation member for a character to be a Trill? One of the Dax hosts met McCoy in the 23rd Century so they would appear to be known in that era.

 

[Tuskin38]

Tobin Dax met a Cardassian Poet on Vulcan. So that host was living in the Federation, or at least visiting.