Akiva Goldsman On How Long Picard Will Last

[fireproof78]

*shrugs* Closest thing I can think of to a plot hole is that we don't find out the story of how Hugh went from leading the Free Borg faction in "Descent" to becoming a Federation citizen and executive director of the Borg Reclamation Project.

But even that's not really a plot hole, any more than how the Federation went from being enemies of the Klingons in Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home to allies of the Klingons at the start of The Next Generation was a plot hole in 1987. It was just a story that hadn't been told yet.

Indeed.

 

[Sci]

You were trying to downplay the Romulans destroying Mars because the death count is similar to a 2 month pandemic. "Just something to think about" as you said?

Sigh. Obviously our brains work very differently. I wasn't trying to downplay the Mars Attack within the context of the world of PIC; I was trying to suggest that we in real life are under-reacting to the damage caused by our real-life government's bungling of the pandemic.

"The Zhat Vash was an ancient and secret Romulan cabal of Tal Shiar operatives. According to Laris, it was thousands upon thousands of years old, and it supposedly predated the Tal Shiar, which she said functioned merely as a mask for the Zhat Vash."

Yeah, and then we saw in the Mars Attack that the Zhat Vash were willing to allow the Romulan state itself to be destroyed in the name of their anti-Synth agenda. So obviously the Zhat Vash can't just be the same thing as the Tal Shiar, since the Tal Shiar's goal is and has always been maintaining the supremacy of the Romulan state.

Don't be so condescending. You've no idea if people were paying attention or not

When people literally ask, "Wait, did X do Y?" when the show made it very, very clear that "Z did Y," then, yes, I do indeed know that they were not paying attention.

by "they didn't quite stick the landing" do you mean... they didn't provide any landing and just abandoned the storyline?

I mean, the subplot came to a conclusion that I felt did not live up to the quality of the previous parts of that subplot. That's not even the same thing as it being bad, it just means that the end of that subplot did not deliver the kind of catharsis I had hoped for.

There are, in life, degrees of quality between "perfection" and "shit." The XB subplot doesn't get to be that first pole because it ends too abruptly, but it lends itself to wonderful scenes exploring post-supernova Romulan society, developing Soji and Narek as characters, the entire Picard PTSD scene where he first beams aboard the Artifact (which was wonderful), and a great arc with Hugh. It's not perfect, but enough there is good that the XB subplot gets a solid B+ from me.

 

[RAMA]

I'm still going with 3 years and 30 episodes. I'm totally fine with that. That's a good run with an 80-year-old star!

 

[Danja]

I agree Elnor was underutilized. I hope PIC S2 visits Vashti again, because I think that's the key to getting Elnor to a place where he develops more as a person, and to finding a source of tension and drama in his grandpaternal relationship with Jean-Luc.

Jean-Luc dumping him on a Borg cube isn't tension-inducing enough?

Looks to me like S2 is gonna be about found family, about Picard taking up the mantle of father figure/grandfather figure to the crew of La Sirena. Picard has never had children, and yet now he has become a father to a whole group of people who are, to varying degrees, kind of messed up and in need of that kind of love.

Now, I do think that the Artifact's and Seven's presence at Coppelius ended too abruptly. Chabon should have tried to find a way to fit the Artifact in with that final space confrontation, or found some way to establish that the XBs would play a role in how the Federation would relate to the Coppelians; having the Artifact just crash shortly after arrival and never return to flight, and having the XBs play no role in how the Federation would relate to the Coppelians, is dramatically unsatisfying. But that doesn't mean the XBs shouldn't have been there in the first place.

Picard and Seven of Nine: two people who cannot STAND each other -- who've spent good portions of their respective careers literally SHOOTING at one another -- are now going to have find a way to work together.

 

[Sci]

Jean-Luc dumping him on a Borg cube isn't tension-inducing enough?

I was thinking in terms of their relationship, not in terms of the particular plot that has since been resolved.

 

[fireproof78]

Jean-Luc dumping him on a Borg cube isn't tension-inducing enough?

I personally think Elnor served as an interesting visualization of Picard's sense of responsibility and guilt, as well as being a person to explore the newer facets that we haven't really seen, like Freecloud.

 

[Sci]

I personally think Elnor served as an interesting visualization of Picard's sense of responsibility and guilt, as well as being a person to explore the newer facets that we haven't really seen, like Freecloud.

I agree -- I just want to see them give him more time next season. He's not as fully developed as he could be.

In particular, I think I'd be interested in seeing how Elnor and Soji relate to each other. They're both outsiders in the cultures in which they were raised -- well, okay, "raised" in Soji's case -- and I think that makes for an interesting parallel. And of course, they've both got this sort of ersatz grandfather figure in Jean-Luc.

 

[Sci]

(Honestly, for a guy who never had kids, Jean-Luc has a lot of ersatz children and grandchildren in his life -- Data, Wesley, Soji, Elnor... arguably Will, Deanna, Raffi, and Agnes, too.)

 

[plynch]

Good lord, the explanations of the plot intricacies are themselves convoluted. I hate complicated Agatha Christie mysteries. By the way, I am not some idiot, and have read all the novels of Dicke ns: sprawling over 800 pages, but god, not with layers of secret services within secret services who orchestrate X to make something look like ... and no, the exBORG had no reason to be in this show other than fanservice.
I just hate this shit. Why does EVerything have to be a f*tcking puzzle box!? Why could we not have had a drama about aged Picard instead of a .... whatever. The fact that intelligent FANS here still argue about plot holes and how to even interpret the facts of the plot just doesn't speak well. Yup, maybe I'm dumb and didn't pay attention. Except, y'know what, I was smart enough to get and love Breaking Bad, and I honestly think it is one of the great artistic achievements of Western culture. Yup. I and my stupid English major and several degrees, we'll just go curl up with some Gomer Pyle now, cuz we're too dumb to pay attention to a banal, yet still convoluted plot about keeping the squealing tentacle monsters out of our universe and DESTROYING ALL LIFE. Like the AI in DSC almost did!!! SCARY!! Oh, and hey, kids, DATA'S BACK! But he's dying AGAIN cuz last time wasn't sad enough. FEEL SAD!! I actually was ok with this show; but the more I think about it with my inferior brain and low attention span, the more I hate it.

 

[fireproof78]

I was smart enough to get and love Breaking Bad, and I honestly think it is one of the great artistic achievements of Western culture.

You lost me here.

 

[plynch]

You lost me here.

i think it is up there with Shakespeare and Dickens and holds its own with any film/video works ever.

 

[fireproof78]

i think it is up there with Shakespeare and Dickens and holds its own with any film/video works ever.

I'll take your word for it.

 

[Sci]

Good lord, the explanations of the plot intricacies are themselves convoluted. I hate complicated Agatha Christie mysteries. By the way, I am not some idiot, and have read all the novels of Dicke ns: sprawling over 800 pages, but god, not with layers of secret services within secret services who orchestrate X to make something look like

It really wasn't that complicated. I'm not calling you an idiot, but you just weren't paying attention.

... and no, the exBORG had no reason to be in this show other than fanservice.

The XBs' presence tied into the broader theme of how the organic-dominated galaxy oppresses synthetic lifeforms, and tied into Jean-Luc's PTSD over his assimilation and his own anxieties and prejudices about artificial lifeforms (which, while far ahead of others in his society, are still occasionally problematic). Their presence was good. The ending wasn't perfect, but an imperfect ending does not invalidate the entire subplot.

I just hate this shit. Why does EVerything have to be a f*tcking puzzle box!?

Because that's the story Chabon wanted to tell. If it's not for you, hey, fine, but just say you subjectively don't like mysteries. Don't try to construct an argument that invalidates mysteries as a genre.

Why could we not have had a drama about aged Picard

We did. It was both.

Except, y'know what, I was smart enough to get and love Breaking Bad, and I honestly think it is one of the great artistic achievements of Western culture.

And I promise you, if someone had decided to refuse to engage with Breaking Bad on its own terms as a work of art in the same way that you are refusing to engage with Star Trek: Picard on its own terms as a work of art, they could make identical arguments about Breaking Bad as those you are making about Star Trek: Picard.