Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release...

[Alidar Jarok]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

^^ But there's also the nature of his objectives to take into consideration.

Now of course, I don't disagree that his objectives were never at all praiseworthy (well, his HYDRA objectives, you have to keep in mind that he also achieved things as an agent in addition to being a double agent). But his objective, from his perspective, was to do what the guy who rescued him from the hellhole of his parents and brother* told him to do. It was no more, no less. He had no loyalty to HYDRA, just to Garrett (who was also really doing it for petty revenge against SHIELD and didn't care about HYDRA either, but he was more closely aligned).

* While attempted murder isn't really all that good either, let's keep in mind that he was in juvenile detention for trying to kill his older brother who had forced him to torture his younger brother (technically, he was there for arson since they couldn't prove he knew his brother was there, but let's be realistic).

I'm sure Seal Team Six could have captured Osama Bin Laden but I think the world is better off with them putting one in the head a two in the chest (it might be the other way around).

Hand thought similarly with Garrett.

Seal Team 6 made the calculation that going into hostile territory and safely extracting him wasn't practicable without undue risk. Garrett, at that point, had been secure for hours (I've argued previously, based on the timeline that the events occurred quite possibly half a day later). The only risk occurred when she handed someone a gun to shoot him. Before that, he was safely contained. And, certainly from her perspective, he was safely contained. I think it's more accurate to say that SHIELD isn't really big on due process. But her actions are not defensible in the same way as Seal Team 6's.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

^^ But there's also the nature of his objectives to take into consideration.

Now of course, I don't disagree that his objectives were never at all praiseworthy (well, his HYDRA objectives, you have to keep in mind that he also achieved things as an agent in addition to being a double agent). But his objective, from his perspective, was to do what the guy who rescued him from the hellhole of his parents and brother* told him to do. It was no more, no less. He had no loyalty to HYDRA, just to Garrett (who was also really doing it for petty revenge against SHIELD and didn't care about HYDRA either, but he was more closely aligned).

* While attempted murder isn't really all that good either, let's keep in mind that he was in juvenile detention for trying to kill his older brother who had forced him to torture his younger brother (technically, he was there for arson since they couldn't prove he knew his brother was there, but let's be realistic).

That's pretty much my point. He's a mess, due to both nature and nurture-- Garrett took his compulsion to hurt and destroy and gave it direction. If he hurt and destroyed in the service of achieving SHIELD objectives, that was just convenient while it lasted.

 

[kitik]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

Season Two premiere on September 23:

http://marvel.com/news/tv/2014/7/15/22878/marvels_agents_of_shield_returns_september_23_to_abc

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

I wonder if we can figure out, based on that, when Agent Carter is starting and when the season is coming to an end.

 

[Reverend]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

^^ But there's also the nature of his objectives to take into consideration.

Now of course, I don't disagree that his objectives were never at all praiseworthy (well, his HYDRA objectives, you have to keep in mind that he also achieved things as an agent in addition to being a double agent). But his objective, from his perspective, was to do what the guy who rescued him from the hellhole of his parents and brother* told him to do. It was no more, no less. He had no loyalty to HYDRA, just to Garrett (who was also really doing it for petty revenge against SHIELD and didn't care about HYDRA either, but he was more closely aligned).

* While attempted murder isn't really all that good either, let's keep in mind that he was in juvenile detention for trying to kill his older brother who had forced him to torture his younger brother (technically, he was there for arson since they couldn't prove he knew his brother was there, but let's be realistic).

That's pretty much my point. He's a mess, due to both nature and nurture-- Garrett took his compulsion to hurt and destroy and gave it direction. If he hurt and destroyed in the service of achieving SHIELD objectives, that was just convenient while it lasted.

I'm pretty sure there's no nature in this equation. As far as I can tell, everything we've seen has all been down to nurture.

I wonder if we can figure out, based on that, when Agent Carter is starting and when the season is coming to an end.

Late September plus eleven weeks is early December, is it not?

 

[kitik]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

If the split between AOS/AC/AOS is 10-8-12, then the tenth episode would be Tuesday, November 25.

I wonder if Agent Carter would start up in early December, and then take a few weeks off over Christmas, of if they'll just wait to start it in early January. If all 30 episodes went straight through without a single Tuesday skipped, the season finale would be April 14. If they skipped the entire month of December, but went straight through otherwise, the season finale would be May 19. Which sounds like a very reasonable date. Though if for some reason they need the finale to air before Age Of Ultron hits theaters, they'd obviously have to compact the schedule a bit more.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

I'm pretty sure there's no nature in this equation. As far as I can tell, everything we've seen has all been down to nurture.

It's always nature to some degree, but given the extremity of his behavior and that of his immediate family, it looks to me like there's a biological factor. But who knows if the writers have even thought it through that far?

 

[Reverend]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

I'm pretty sure there's no nature in this equation. As far as I can tell, everything we've seen has all been down to nurture.

It's always nature to some degree, but given the extremity of his behavior and that of his immediate family, it looks to me like there's a biological factor. But who knows if the writers have even thought it through that far?

As far as I can see, the only "nature" is a certain mental (and I suppose, physical) toughness that allowed him to survive the ordeal. That's hardly indicative of psychotic, sociopathic or even just anti-social behaviour in and of itself. At most he *might* be slightly more inclined to submissiveness (not typically a trait of a psycho btw) but that could just as easily be conditioned behaviour.

No, everything we've learned about Ward's background has all about what's been done *to* him, not what he's done to others. They're showing him as the victim in his own life story.

If the root of it was something within him, then they'd have shown him as the twitchy kid who plays with roadkill, sets fire to birds nests and acts out power fantasies.

It's no accident that they would specifically have Ward grow attached to a dog and then ordered to shoot it because on some level, he *is* that dog. Or at least that dog (an innocent, trained to obey and trust) is a symbol for who he was and killing him is symbolic of killing the innocent person he used to be.

In short, not all aberrant behaviour can be blamed on biology. Nurture can overcome nature and visa-versa. Which one prevails in a given instance is entirely situational. In this instance, it's pretty self evident that Ward's nature got beaten over the head with a stick at a very young age. And just because his family might have a history of psychosis, doesn't mean *every* member does.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

And it doesn't mean that they don't. The way his background was portrayed, after the big change up, looked to me like he was that he was a bad apple from a bad tree. Your mileage may vary. As I say, the writers probably haven't thought it through that far, aside from setting up his possible redemption.

 

[Reverend]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

And it doesn't mean that they don't. The way his background was portrayed, after the big change up, looked to me like he was that he was a bad apple from a bad tree. Your mileage may vary. As I say, the writers probably haven't thought it through that far, aside from setting up his possible redemption.

Well as I pointed out, they've been pretty consistent in their portrayal of his background. It's ALL been about things that were inflicted on him, not what he's inflicted on others.

Indeed, the very reason he was in jail to begin with is pretty good proof that he's not sociopathic. The fact that he set the house on fire to kill his brother and father says that he hates them and wants them to die painfully, but that he also afraid to face them. A true psychopath would have wanted to see their faces, he would have set *them* on fire, not the house (which is why it didn't work.)

It's a recurring theme in his character arc; he doesn't like to look into is victim's eyes. He couldn't do it with the dog, just like he couldn't do it with Fitz and Simmons. Why? Because his brother made him watch his little brother. These are mental scars brought on by abuse, not some innate predilection for murder and mayhem.

Most of all though, it's pretty obvious that while he is willing to get his hands dirty, he doesn't *like* the violence. He's not a sadist. He does what he does because he thinks it's necessary because he's been indoctrinated to think that way.

 

[kitik]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

free poster for attendees at SDCC, showing that Agent Carter won't start until January:

(by the way, nice poster!)

 

[The Old Mixer]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

That poster would suggest that Ward is still in the main cast and Trip isn't....

 

[Enterprise1701]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

^Argh! You have got to be kidding me!

 

[Mr Light]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

I would be very surprised and disappointed if Trip didn't replace Ward as a regular.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

I would at least hope that Trip is a regular regardless of whether he replaces Ward.

Anyway, a January start date for Agent Carter does suggest that everyone should hurry up and watch Age of Ultron to avoid spoilers before the finale of Agents of SHIELD. Although I suppose it's possible there's less of a crossover this time.

 

[Mage]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

Is it me, or does Fitz look a bit like a ghostly figure in that poster??

 

[RJDiogenes]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

^^ I hope not.

And it doesn't mean that they don't. The way his background was portrayed, after the big change up, looked to me like he was that he was a bad apple from a bad tree. Your mileage may vary. As I say, the writers probably haven't thought it through that far, aside from setting up his possible redemption.

Well as I pointed out, they've been pretty consistent in their portrayal of his background. It's ALL been about things that were inflicted on him, not what he's inflicted on others.

Indeed, the very reason he was in jail to begin with is pretty good proof that he's not sociopathic. The fact that he set the house on fire to kill his brother and father says that he hates them and wants them to die painfully, but that he also afraid to face them. A true psychopath would have wanted to see their faces, he would have set *them* on fire, not the house (which is why it didn't work.)

It's a recurring theme in his character arc; he doesn't like to look into is victim's eyes. He couldn't do it with the dog, just like he couldn't do it with Fitz and Simmons. Why? Because his brother made him watch his little brother. These are mental scars brought on by abuse, not some innate predilection for murder and mayhem.

Most of all though, it's pretty obvious that while he is willing to get his hands dirty, he doesn't *like* the violence. He's not a sadist. He does what he does because he thinks it's necessary because he's been indoctrinated to think that way.

Well, there are psychopaths and sociopaths who are arsonists or pyromaniacs, or who kill using poison or other methods where they don't face the victim. Ward may have just been too afraid to face them. But you're not wrong and we'll probably never know, except that he's almost certainly being set up for some redemptive moment.

That poster would suggest that Ward is still in the main cast and Trip isn't....

Hopefully that's deliberate misdirection-- or old artwork.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

Is it me, or does Fitz look a bit like a ghostly figure in that poster??

I think it's the lighting. Although I'll point out that I think Ward is deliberately in shadow, so the lighting may be deliberately symbolic.

 

[Reverend]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

And it doesn't mean that they don't. The way his background was portrayed, after the big change up, looked to me like he was that he was a bad apple from a bad tree. Your mileage may vary. As I say, the writers probably haven't thought it through that far, aside from setting up his possible redemption.

Well as I pointed out, they've been pretty consistent in their portrayal of his background. It's ALL been about things that were inflicted on him, not what he's inflicted on others.

Indeed, the very reason he was in jail to begin with is pretty good proof that he's not sociopathic. The fact that he set the house on fire to kill his brother and father says that he hates them and wants them to die painfully, but that he also afraid to face them. A true psychopath would have wanted to see their faces, he would have set *them* on fire, not the house (which is why it didn't work.)

It's a recurring theme in his character arc; he doesn't like to look into is victim's eyes. He couldn't do it with the dog, just like he couldn't do it with Fitz and Simmons. Why? Because his brother made him watch his little brother. These are mental scars brought on by abuse, not some innate predilection for murder and mayhem.

Most of all though, it's pretty obvious that while he is willing to get his hands dirty, he doesn't *like* the violence. He's not a sadist. He does what he does because he thinks it's necessary because he's been indoctrinated to think that way.

Well, there are psychopaths and sociopaths who are arsonists or pyromaniacs, or who kill using poison or other methods where they don't face the victim. Ward may have just been too afraid to face them. But you're not wrong and we'll probably never know, except that he's almost certainly being set up for some redemptive moment.

The use use of fire in itself is not an indicator one way or the other. As I pointed out, the crucial detail is that his attempt was circumspect. I was actually going to mention poisoners, but I didn;t want to stray too far from topic, but seeing as you brought it up: to my knowledge, most serial killers who are known to use poison (mostly women, but a few notable men) tend to like to stick around so they can see their handiwork in action. Same with pyromaniacs. Indeed, for a lot of them, watching it is the whole point.

When Ward set that fire, he wasn't acting out some power fantasy, he's taking revenge and (I'm assuming) protecting his younger brother. Motivation and context matter in this regard.

Is it me, or does Fitz look a bit like a ghostly figure in that poster??

I think it's the lighting. Although I'll point out that I think Ward is deliberately in shadow, so the lighting may be deliberately symbolic.

Skye seems a bit off an her own too. You'd have thought she'd be more prominent given her role on the show.

 

[DEWLine]

Re: Agents of SHIELD season 2 News, Rumors, Pics, etc. until release..

Reverend: counter-question here.

Protecting his younger brother...or avenging him?