Age of the Federation....

[Warped9]

That's completely not true. The intent of Enterprise was always to lead into the Trek continuity we knew, which is why it did so many episodes setting up elements from TOS and later. The Temporal Cold War was forced on Berman and Braga by the network, over their objections. They wanted to do a straight prequel, but the network was uncomfortable with that and wanted to include elements that went forward from TNG/DS9/VGR. So Berman & Braga tossed in some vague time-war stuff that they didn't really have any investment in or any coherent plan for, then spent as little time focusing on it as they could get away with and eventually ditched the whole thing. Frankly I wonder if they deliberately did a half-hearted job with the time-war stuff so that the network would eventually decide it didn't work and allow them to stop doing it. Because what they wanted, what they intended, was to set up the existing continuity. Any perceived difference in execution is a matter of differences in storytelling style and individual creators' interpretation, just like TOS, the movies, TNG, and the rest all have their own differences in style. Every single followup to TOS has been dismissed by some fans as an alternate reality. Three and a half decades ago, there were people who insisted that TMP and TWOK had to be a separate reality from TOS. After all, they argued, the technology was much more advanced-looking, the Klingons had a totally different appearance, Khan knew Chekov somehow, Starfleet was more militaristic in TWOK, etc. How could it possibly be the same reality with all those differences? But the truth was that the differences were a matter of style and interpretation, as is inevitable in any work of art that comes from multiple hands. They were still meant to be representations of the same continuous whole.

How nice. He was expressing his opinion, and one shared by some fans. I happen to share a similar opinion. Actually I go further and simply ignore it altogether. As fans we're allowed to do that just as others are allowed to accept whatever piddle TPTB shovel with the Trek name on it.

 

[Kemaiku]

One shared by some fans.

But such a relative minority as to not be worth taking into consideration.

 

[Warped9]

But such a relative minority as to not be worth taking into consideration.

Goody for you.

And given I started this conversation based on what TOS seemed to be saying rather than what B&B crapped out I'd say our view is the baseline for the duscussion.

 

[SpaceLama]

I don't care to be so negative. When faced with a problem, you can either whine and carp about it and get all holier-than-thou, or you can apply imagination and effort to actually address it in a constructive way. And I have no patience for people who think that the former approach is somehow more righteous or legitimate. It's not a pity that I "had to" use my imagination, any more than it's a pity that an athlete has to use her muscles and her dexterity. Fans have the luxury to just sit around and complain uselessly; I'm a professional and it's my job to create and to solve problems. That's not a pity, it's a privilege.

If you'd actually read my books and understood my reasoning, rather than just pre-emptively condemning what you don't understand, you'd realize that my decision wasn't arbitrary.

I like a lot of what you say on TrekBBS, but this kinda thing is not cricket.

 

[RAMA]

Agree on this post Christopher. Excellent.

Of course the reason I joked about this thread the other day is because the producers didn't know and didn't care how old the Federation was, and taking a cue from the series Bible, they tried not to pin such info down. It is only with later series, that the context of the centuries it takes place in and the passage of time makes any real impact on continuity, therefore totally relevant to the conversation.

RAMA

That's completely not true. The intent of Enterprise was always to lead into the Trek continuity we knew, which is why it did so many episodes setting up elements from TOS and later. The Temporal Cold War was forced on Berman and Braga by the network, over their objections. They wanted to do a straight prequel, but the network was uncomfortable with that and wanted to include elements that went forward from TNG/DS9/VGR. So Berman & Braga tossed in some vague time-war stuff that they didn't really have any investment in or any coherent plan for, then spent as little time focusing on it as they could get away with and eventually ditched the whole thing. Frankly I wonder if they deliberately did a half-hearted job with the time-war stuff so that the network would eventually decide it didn't work and allow them to stop doing it. Because what they wanted, what they intended, was to set up the existing continuity. Any perceived difference in execution is a matter of differences in storytelling style and individual creators' interpretation, just like TOS, the movies, TNG, and the rest all have their own differences in style. Every single followup to TOS has been dismissed by some fans as an alternate reality. Three and a half decades ago, there were people who insisted that TMP and TWOK had to be a separate reality from TOS. After all, they argued, the technology was much more advanced-looking, the Klingons had a totally different appearance, Khan knew Chekov somehow, Starfleet was more militaristic in TWOK, etc. How could it possibly be the same reality with all those differences? But the truth was that the differences were a matter of style and interpretation, as is inevitable in any work of art that comes from multiple hands. They were still meant to be representations of the same continuous whole.

 

[Timo]

That UE and UFP Starfeet and UESPA all have an arrowhead logo isn't indicative of much anything. NASA and Roscosmos have that, too (it would be darn difficult to find a space launch industry today that didn't use an arrowhead!).

And Chronowerx, which could be argued to have been the most influential organization ever in the Trek version of world history.

All those arrowheads are subtly different, of course. As are the UESF and UESPA ones.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shawnster]

^That's a fair point, but I think the UESPA insignia becoming the Starfleet insignia kind of rules it out.

Is there evidence to support this statement, or is it just an assumption or conclusion you've reached? As noted in other discussions about the Starfleet Detla emblem, there are several agencies on Earth today that share a similar design element.

Did the UESPA emblem become the Delta or the side pennant? http://www.alanoodle.com/e-prise_side_decals.jpg

Yes, I know Friendship One seems to imply that UESPA logo is now a Delta with the United Earth (UN) logo inside. If we want to perform some light mental gymnastics (which I'm normally loathe to do), we could rationalize this as a multi-agency logo similar to how the Space Shuttle had both the US Flag and the NASA logos or a US fighter jet might have the flag and the Air Force logos.

 

[Christopher]

^Well, I've written four novels now portraying UESPA as the agency that ran United Earth Starfleet and then became the exploration arm of the Federation Starfleet. So it's a few years too late to talk me out of it now.

 

[Ithekro]

I wonder if one can interpret the use of the arrowhead design in USS Kelvin into the concept? USS Enterprise uses it during and before her Five Year Mission, but other ships do not. Yet USS Kelvin does as well a generation earlier.

 

[Kemaiku]

That UE and UFP Starfeet and UESPA all have an arrowhead logo isn't indicative of much anything.

Except that they were somewhat equal and joined at the hip at some administrative level, and needed to be shown at a high level, multi-species diplomatic function that would decide the fate of tens of billions of people across hundreds of lightyears in a once in a century interstellar event.

Yeah, not important at all...

 

[J.T.B.]

Is there evidence to support this statement, or is it just an assumption or conclusion you've reached? As noted in other discussions about the Starfleet Detla emblem, there are several agencies on Earth today that share a similar design element.

Did the UESPA emblem become the Delta or the side pennant? http://www.alanoodle.com/e-prise_side_decals.jpg

Well, looking for consistency within TOS is one thing, but consistency with a different show from 30 years later is not something that really interests me. Still, if the emblem in question is the one from the floor posted up-thread, there are enough differences that I could easily believe that the one inspired the other, rather than became it.

 

[Kemaiku]

That would make an interesting uniform insignia.

 

[Timo]

Except that they were somewhat equal and joined at the hip at some administrative level, and needed to be shown at a high level, multi-species diplomatic function that would decide the fate of tens of billions of people across hundreds of lightyears in a once in a century interstellar event.

...For all we know, this room was vacant for the meeting exactly because UESPA was such an insignificant organization that its facilities could be confiscated for the oddest of reasons.

Or then this wing of civilian contractor offices was the only one SF Command agreed to clear for access by untrustworthy alien scum.

I wonder if one can interpret the use of the arrowhead design in USS Kelvin into the concept? USS Enterprise uses it during and before her Five Year Mission, but other ships do not. Yet USS Kelvin does as well a generation earlier.

The good old "separate Fleets within Starfleet have separate insignia" rationalization can be extended backwards as far as need be. The arrowhead might be a 1st Fleet thing. Or then Exploration Division, although it then becomes difficult to understand why the Constellation, surveying the very same planets as the hero ship, would sport a different symbol.

How far forward could this be extended? There's nothing much wrong with assuming that all the ships encountered in the TOS movies were from the 1st Fleet - they are all operating in a confined area compared with TOS, after all. And the symbol doesn't extend beyond the ships and their crews much - it's not on every flag and building yet, say. But all the top top brass wears it - why wouldn't other Fleets be represented there? Cardassian Orders seem to form a hierarchy in DS9, with 1st trumping all others (except Obsidian). Starfleet Fleets don't.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kemaiku]

Or just the main Starfleet emblom, as settled on in 1987 onwards.

 

[Christopher]

I wonder if one can interpret the use of the arrowhead design in USS Kelvin into the concept? USS Enterprise uses it during and before her Five Year Mission, but other ships do not.

That's not true. We saw in "Court-Martial" that the arrowhead was worn by non-Enterprise officers (Kirk's old acquaintances in the bar scene, whose attitude toward him would be insubordinate if they were on his crew), and we saw a Starbase 11 crewmember wearing an arrowhead in "The Menagerie, Part 1." Also, the Defiant crew in "The Tholian Web" had arrowhead insignias, barely visible if you look closely enough, even though "In a Mirror, Darkly" got it wrong and gave them a different insignia. Also, the 22nd-century enlisted rating patches used on Enterprise had tiny arrowheads in them. So it was never exclusively the Enterprise emblem -- that's a longstanding myth in fandom.

There was a Bob Justman memo that was recently unearthed, stating that the arrowhead was intended by Roddenberry to be used by all starship-class vessels; the Antares emblem in "Charlie X" was meant to represent the merchant marine. The use of different insignias for the Constellation and Exeter was considered a production mistake by Justman, though it's odd that it got past him twice.

The interpretation I've gone with in my books is that the insignias represent different divisions within Starfleet, rather than single vessels.

 

[Ithekro]

I missed the word, "some" before "other ships do not".

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Also, the Defiant crew in "The Tholian Web" had arrowhead insignias, barely visible if you look closely enough, even though "In a Mirror, Darkly" got it wrong and gave them a different insignia.

Wouldn't that be more of an intentional change rather than a mistake, though?

 

[Marsden]

I like old version where the Federation was an area that the founding members agreed to explore and build a community out of it, protecting those that couldn't yet join and admitting those that wanted to. That's one of the reasons the Federation was a circle on the map, it was the area they chose to be in their stewardship, and this did annoy the Klingons and Romulans. I think the Prime Directive works better in that setting, as all of the worlds shown in TOS were unexplored yet inside Federation territory, somewhat like the USA owned the Louisiana Purchase but didn't know what was there and needed to send explorers. Unlike that example, though, the inhabitants aren't included in the ownership.

I'm not sure how old the Federation is, but most of it's claimed territory is unexplored at the time of TOS, so that could make it seem newer than it is, possibly. But this story was discarded, or likely never the story to be discarded, so it's hard to say, but I think it works better with what was on screen before the spinoffs and recons and canon business that cropped up afterward.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Wouldn't that be more of an intentional change rather than a mistake, though?

They thought they were correcting an "error" by the original production team. So it's not quite a mistake.

 

[Poltargyst]

I like to think that events depicted in Enterprise take place in an alternate reality due to the temporal cold war being waged at the time (forgive the pun) and Berman and Braga definitely had no interest in TOS!
JB

It would definitely lower my dissatisfaction with ENT to think this way. IMO, the whole point of ENT should have been building a universe, building TOS. By the time ENT ended, we should have been able to see how we get from ENT to TOS with little trouble. Instead they spent WAYYYYYYYY too much time doing anything but.

And I hated the temporal col war regardless of whose idea it was.