After the BORG...

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After the BORG assimlate someone if they have specal abilities, like Odo's shape shifting, would the new drone retain any of their natural abilities, or does the assimilation process destroy any and all of their powers, or could the collective even be able to assimilate them at all, species 8472 seemed to have a special DNA that nano-probes could not affect. This may be for the DS-9 site, however, would it be possible to assimilate a shape-shifter?

Resistance is Futile

 

[Thirishar]

Actually, no the Borg can't assimilate a shapeshifter. This was discovered in DS9 Mission Gamma Book 4: Lesser Evil, when a Borg tries to assimilate a changeling that the Defiant crew discovered living on a remote planet. The changeling was able to condense all the borg nanites together into one little ball and remove them from her body.

 

[Rÿcher]

you take stock in anything any of those books say?

why couldn't the changelings do that with the virus that section 31 infected them with, hmm?

 

[DontFeedPhil]

Yeah, Im sorry but I just dont consider books cannon. For obvious reasons...

 

[JNG]

I don't think that the genome, or whatever, of the shapeshifters is nearly as complex as that of Species 8472. The Federation was able to design a bioweapon that would affect them, and was even able to modify the Borg nanoprobes to work on 8472 after all. It seems very unlikely to me that the shapeshifters would be especially resistant to the process of assimilation (which doesn't only include the presence of nanoprobes, but nanocircuit fibers, surgery, and possibly consequences and techniques we don't know about), and also I think it is somewhat likely that the Borg have encountered such a species before and may have measures prepared.

However, it is within the bounds of possibility that the shapeshifters could be resistant to Borg measures that were not specifically devised with them in mind, or perhaps only temporarily so.

 

[Damask]

why couldn't the changelings do that with the virus that section 31 infected them with, hmm?

Because the virus was organic in nature. Given that the Borg and their assimilation tools are mechanical in nature the Founders could change to fog, the nanprobes drop to the ground, turn into a brick and squash the nanoprobes, change to fire, etc.

I don't think the Borg get special powers from the race they assimilate. Maybe a Klingon Borg is more resilient?

 

[Thirishar]

you take stock in anything any of those books say?

Sure I do, I wouldn't spend hours and hours reading them if I didn't.

Yeah, Im sorry but I just dont consider books cannon. For obvious reasons...

I consider them canon. They are just as much canon as the movies and shows as far as I'm concerned. Star Trek, like any sci fi or fantasy, is all about imagination and escape. So, in my mind, the books are a valid continuation of the Star Trek Universe and it doesn't matter what some studio executives say. It isn't like Star Trek is real anyway; it's all immaginary.

 

[Rÿcher]

so, Kirk's grandfather was really in command of the Enterprise before he was? (or something. I read it a long time ago.)

 

[Marie1]

Officially, the books are not canon- and there is a diatribe about it on this site. But the books follow the continuity, are checked over by CBS (the PTB know Trek inside and out) and are just plain awesome. And we may as well consider what happens in DS9R as the future since we aren't likely to get a DS9 movie ever- so if you wanna know what happens, that and fanfic is what you get.

I don't believe that the Founders could be assimilated, because, as said above, the Founder could become fog, fire etc., and then the nanoprobes would be useless. The Virus got into the cells, nanoprobes don't.

But that being said, part of the reason the Borg assimilate is to take attributes of people that have something to offer, not just technology. So you'd assume a Jem'Hadar Borg could shroud- which would be awful! Klingons may be tough, tho agile species would be more practical imo. I don't know if we've seen drones of species with special abilities, have we? Just run of the mill humans, bolians, cardies etc?

 

[Thirishar]

so, Kirk's grandfather was really in command of the Enterprise before he was? (or something. I read it a long time ago.)

No, Kirk's grandfather wasn't real. Neither was Kirk. They are fictional characters. Of course some of the older books contradict the shows. Hell, even the shows contradict the shows. My point is, every fan is free to watch what they want to watch, read what they want to read, and fit it all together in their head the way they like. I happen to believe that the writers of the newer books (some of whom even worked on the shows) have done a fantastic job with continuing the stories of my fav. shows (TNG, DS9), and since we'll probaby never see those shows on screen again, I choose to accept the books as canon.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

I don't think pushing them out would work as effectively as turning ones self into a rock and thus crushing the nanoprobes. Borg Nanoprobes are tiny machines made no doubt from metal alloys and are thus easy to crush, the disease that infected them was biological in nature and because it was engineered to attack a changelings crystaline cellular structure couldn't easily be killed.

Also let's not forget that Borg nanoprobes arn't designed specifically to assimilate changelings like the Section 31 bio weapon was. The Borg can only adapt through assimilation as evidenced by species 8472, if they can't assimilate changelings they can't upgrade their nano probes.

 

[Marie1]

I think there was more here at some point, later in the thread...

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=63813

 

[Navaros]

The books are not canon.

However, that does not mean that Founders can be assimilated. They can't. The books happen to be right on that point.

 

[3D Master]

Officially, the books are not canon- and there is a diatribe about it on this site. But the books follow the continuity, are checked over by CBS (the PTB know Trek inside and out) and are just plain awesome. And we may as well consider what happens in DS9R as the future since we aren't likely to get a DS9 movie ever- so if you wanna know what happens, that and fanfic is what you get.

I don't believe that the Founders could be assimilated, because, as said above, the Founder could become fog, fire etc., and then the nanoprobes would be useless. The Virus got into the cells, nanoprobes don't.

The whole point of nano technology is that they are so small they are smaller than cells, and wouldn't just fall to the ground should be in something that produces some friction and impulse; just like air molecules don't fall to the ground, and slivers of skin don't drop straight to the ground.

Thing is though, the Founders can NOT "become fog". There'd always have to remain something of the changelings that'd remain distinctly changeling. If they literally become fog 100%, THEY would be dead, and there'd be just fog floating around.

So even in the fog, there are still cells and changeling stuff that is changeling, which the nano-probes can or already have attacked and infected.

I don't think pushing them out would work as effectively as turning ones self into a rock and thus crushing the nanoprobes. Borg Nanoprobes are tiny machines made no doubt from metal alloys and are thus easy to crush, the disease that infected them was biological in nature and because it was engineered to attack a changelings crystaline cellular structure couldn't easily be killed.

Ah, no. Rocks are mostly empty space as any material is. The whole point of nano-probes is that they are so small they can go into the empty space. And again, changelings don't "become a rock". If they genuinely 100% "became a rock", they'd be dead and there'd just be a rock. Something of the changeling must remain changeling in order to continue living (and change back eventually), and the nanoprobes would either be attacking that, or already have attacked that.

Also let's not forget that Borg nanoprobes arn't designed specifically to assimilate changelings like the Section 31 bio weapon was. The Borg can only adapt through assimilation as evidenced by species 8472, if they can't assimilate changelings they can't upgrade their nano probes.

Riker: "The Borg have the ability to analyze and adapt commander."

Like the Borg can't capture a specimen, analyze and adapt. But then I suppose that would be the difference between TNG Borg and Voyager Borg.

 

[Marie1]

Perhaps- but the "cells" are bio-mimetic... whatever that means, lol!

We've seen Laas become fire and fog-like, and another become a hard crystal substance, so I suspect that, as unrealistic as the abilities of the Founders are, they'd be able to resist nano-probes. And technically, nano-probs are injected in the blood-stream or equivalent, so I suspect a very simple manuver could expel them.

Obviously the cells must exist, but since amid that Great Founder Lake they can pull themselves together, since pieces come back together when separated, Fog etc wouldn't kill them.

Also, the Founder could iscolate the part with the nano-probes and spit it out.

 

[Navaros]

Thing is though, the Founders can NOT "become fog". There'd always have to remain something of the changelings that'd remain distinctly changeling. If they literally become fog 100%, THEY would be dead, and there'd be just fog floating around.

So even in the fog, there are still cells and changeling stuff that is changeling, which the nano-probes can or already have attacked and infected.

The canon of the episode "Chimera" seems to beg to differ about this point.

It seems that the idea that they can't become 100% fog is pure speculation.

 

[JNG]

It seems that the idea that they can't become 100% fog is pure speculation.

Well, it's sort of a semantic issue, but it's true in a sense: fog isn't intelligent, and can't change forms, so they aren't *exactly* fog. They are in some form similar to fog (or whatever you want to name) which supports who and what they are, including the possibility of continuing to change into other forms.

The writers had no really solid answer for the issues this raised (e.g., the question of how much Odo masses when he is a mouse), but did a bit of handwaving that the rest of the mass disappears during that time in some way having to do with subspace. The energy pattern which is their consciousness could also shift to subspace in some way (if so, it must be an unusual domain of subspace, as a readily apparent subspace field around the object or creature being impersonated would have given away the disguise). However, I believe fog, fire or other strange things into which we saw shapeshifters shapeshift could theoretically play host to this pattern as well.

We have no reason to think they can vanish *entirely* into subspace, nor teleport through such a method or anything like that. Something physical must remain, and some vulnerability must remain as well. I wonder if it is a serious risk for a shapeshifter to become fog, his molecules so easily dispersed. There must be a point at which he cannot call them back to one another.

 

[Unicron]

It's an interesting question - it would seem that one could argue that, ultimately, Founders can change their appearance but not their substance. I forget what DS9 said in that area. But if they could actually change their substance to some degree, then the question of why they couldn't eliminate the virus that way might have some merit.

 

[All Seeing Eye]

Tricorders or even station sensors can't even discern the difference between a changeling made into an object and the object itself. If a founder turns into a rock the sensors and tricorder will detect a rock. When you start arguing that changelings can't become pure rock you've then got to start asking well how can changelings think when they have no brains or how are they able to change their mass from that of a fully grown humanoid to the size of a drinking glass.
Evidence would seem to suggest that when a changeling becomes an object they literally become that object or at least 99.9% of their structure does therefore it's not unreasonable to assume that a changeling can change into rock and crush any nanoprobes within them.

The fact that they can change their mass from that of a Humanoid to a small drinking glass means they can compress and condense themselves very tightly, so it's not ridiculous to believe they can condense themselves into a rock and crush even the tiniest of nanoprobes. At the end of the day nanoprobes are still just mechanical machines.

 

[The Borg Queen]

Actually, no the Borg can't assimilate a shapeshifter. This was discovered in DS9 Mission Gamma Book 4: Lesser Evil, when a Borg tries to assimilate a changeling that the Defiant crew discovered living on a remote planet. The changeling was able to condense all the borg nanites together into one little ball and remove them from her body.

No, it was decided on by that particular author, it's not what would REALLY happen. We don't know what would really happen because it hasn't actually happened in the "real" Star Trek world.