After kirk got demoted Spock And scotty technically outranked him

[Brian]

Logically of course the 1-4 pips align closely with US Navy flag ranks - so 1 pip officers exist, as do 2, 3 and 4 for Commodore, Read Admiral, Vice Admiral and Admiral respectively.

Again, there is no rank of Commodore in the U.S. Navy.

The ranks of O-7 through O-11 are Rear Admiral, Lower Half (RDML), Rear Admiral Upper Half (RADM), Vice Admiral (VADM), Admiral (ADM), and Fleet Admiral (FADM). They wear, respectively, one through five stars on their collar and shoulder.

Commodore was supplanted by Rear Admiral, Lower Half. Today, "commodore" is a title only, akin to "comandant", usually held by someone with the rank of Captain.

 

[DanCPA]

I mean, why would there not be a 1-pip rank if there are ranks with 2-4 pips? What sort of an idiot would design a pip scheme that omits the 1-pip option?

The same sort of idiots that have designed police officer uniforms to go from no stripes to two stripes, skipping the 1 stripe rank all together

 

[Brian]

But those are present-day idiots. There are no idiots in the future. They went the way of money and bathrooms.

 

[USS KG5]

Logically of course the 1-4 pips align closely with US Navy flag ranks - so 1 pip officers exist, as do 2, 3 and 4 for Commodore, Read Admiral, Vice Admiral and Admiral respectively.

Again, there is no rank of Commodore in the U.S. Navy.

The ranks of O-7 through O-11 are Rear Admiral, Lower Half (RDML), Rear Admiral Upper Half (RADM), Vice Admiral (VADM), Admiral (ADM), and Fleet Admiral (FADM). They wear, respectively, one through five stars on their collar and shoulder.

Commodore was supplanted by Rear Admiral, Lower Half.

I know all that -I mention RALH in my post - but that has not been for very long - there used to be Commodores in the US Navy, and there still are in the Royal Navy.

The history of the rank does seem rather complicated, but fundamentally it existed into the 1980s as a rank, albeit with a very chequered history in the USN.

Clearly in the real world Starfleet did not refer to Commodores from TNG onwards because they were now not a formal rank in the US Navy, though apparently it survives as an honourary title given to Captains commanding multiple ships.

 

[The Old Mixer]

There are no idiots in the future. They went the way of money and bathrooms.

*cough*Esteban*cough*

 

[Timo]

Did 3-pip Nechayev not get referred to as Vice Admiral in TNG? I seem to remember something similar.

I thought so, too, but apparently the reference doesn't exist. She was called "Fleet Admiral" once, but there are some reasons to think that this is a billet rather than a rank in the TNG era.

The visiting flag officer Bennett in "Dr. Bashir, I Presume" was referred to as Rear Admiral by Sisko originally, when our heroes were awaiting his arrival, but wore four pips at arrival and was only called Admiral from there on. We might suspect Sisko had been reading outdated records, especially as he did quote said Rear Admiral on an old and important statement he had made.

Basically, then, we're free to combine the titles of Rear and Vice Admiral with the pips just as we please. In contrast, we have two clear cases where Fleet Admiral refers to people with three pips, but we also might have a vested interest in denying this connection.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[J.T.B.]

Did 3-pip Nechayev not get referred to as Vice Admiral in TNG? I seem to remember something similar.

I thought so, too, but apparently the reference doesn't exist. She was called "Fleet Admiral" once, but there are some reasons to think that this is a billet rather than a rank in the TNG era.

IIRC it is in "Chain of Command" Part 1. In a log entry Picard says something about a rendezvous for an urgent meeting with "Vice Admiral Nechayev." I don't have TNG DVDs to check, though.

As for the OP observation... Historically, seniority is usually treated similarly to personal property; you earned it, it's yours. Unless a court martial sentenced Kirk to lose his seniority, it's likely that Kirk would go back into the captains list in his former position and thus have more time in grade than Spock or Scotty. Even so, as others have noted, his position as CO would trump the seniority of any officer assigned to his command.

--Justin

 

[Ssosmcin]

When Kirk was demoted back down to Captain, do you think he retained his benefits or did he lose two weeks vacation?

"And we'll need the key to the Admiral's washroom back."

 

[erastus25]

If ties in rank are determined by the amount of time the rank has been held then we can't resolve this unless we know when Kirk was initially promoted to captain. The earliest that will be definitively established is in about 8 months.

 

[Timo]

...But even then we won't learn how long Spock spent at that rank between the various movies.

I wonder if there's room for a story between TMP and ST2 that could be brought to the big screen one day? Or will the 1970s sets and props be even more embarrassing and more in need of "tasteful" updating than the 1960s ones?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Krieg1981]

There is no rank of Commodore in today's Navy. There is a positional title of Commodore, however. There is one at the base I was talking about earlier. His actual rank is Captain.

You are quite correct.

 

[diankra]

On a side-note:

Seniority and years-of-service play an integral role in the Seafort's Hope series of Military SF books by David Feintuch.

And very good they are too, particularly the first one - not that you'll need telling, but if it helps persuade anyone else to check one out... (two-thirds of the way through a re-read of Challenger's Hope).

 

[Elder Knight]

...

The line officer ranks do "skip" something - there is no rank with three bright pips and one dark. And that's odd enough already. But to skip an "entire" pip? Surely the more natural choice if dropping Commodore would have been to also turn Rear Admiral into a single-pip rank, Vice Admiral into a two-pip one, and Admiral to three-pipper.

...
Timo Saloniemi[/quote]

Ah, well, some march to the tune of a different pipper!

Er, piper.

 

[TEH BABA]

There are two Rear Admiral ranks in US Navy. Rear Admiral Upper Half and Rear Admiral Lower half.

 

[Colonel Midnight]

...

The line officer ranks do "skip" something - there is no rank with three bright pips and one dark. And that's odd enough already. But to skip an "entire" pip? Surely the more natural choice if dropping Commodore would have been to also turn Rear Admiral into a single-pip rank, Vice Admiral into a two-pip one, and Admiral to three-pipper.

...
Timo Saloniemi

Same thing basically happens in RL as well -- Commander / O5 in both the Coast Guard and USN are 3 wide stripes, then Captain / O6 is four wide stripes. There's no 3-1/2, in other words.

Cheers,
-CM-

 

[Red Ranger]

There are two Rear Admiral ranks in US Navy. Rear Admiral Upper Half and Rear Admiral Lower half.

While this is true, I don't think it does hold true for Starfleet. And on another note, I always thought that a four-pipper should be a fleet admiral, and that the Starfleet Commandant should just be a fleet admiral with that billet.

As to the original question, it would've made sense, if you have more than one person on board a starship with the rank of captain, that there be another way of indicating which one is the commanding officer. As you recall, Admiral Kirk had gold piping along the black flap of his uniform jacket, I would guess denoting his status as a flag officer. It would make sense if a c.o. had a silver piping to indicate he's the skipper, very similar to the piping I just described. I think in the U.S. Navy, skippers wear some kind of pin to indicate he's the c.o.

Red Ranger

 

[erastus25]

...But even then we won't learn how long Spock spent at that rank between the various movies.

I wonder if there's room for a story between TMP and ST2 that could be brought to the big screen one day? Or will the 1970s sets and props be even more embarrassing and more in need of "tasteful" updating than the 1960s ones?

Timo Saloniemi

I think it could work to add a story there. Might be kind of nice to pin down exactly how much time is between the series and the first movie. Hell, if the movie is awesome and they get really ambitious a TV show could add the mythical second 5-year mission between TMP and STII.

 

[Chaos Descending]

Just to add my $0.02 in, although I have been out of the Navy for almost ten years, I seem to remember that rank seniority among people of equal rank is determined by date of promotion, not time in rank.

That would make all the difference in the world, since Kirk definitely attained the rank of Captain at an earlier date than Mr. Spock and Scotty.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Even if any of this were true, Kirk's command authority as the CO could supersede seniority.

This does have precedent. In The Hunt For Red October (the novel), Tom Clancy writes that in the Russian navy, a captain can be technically outranked by a subordinate (for instance, if the CO is a Captain Second Rank, but one of his crew - like the engineer - is a Captain First Rank), but still command them. Clancy is generally accurate on these things, so I'm guessing this is true.

Whether it applies in other navies, such as the US Navy, is unclear.

 

[J.T.B.]

This does have precedent. In The Hunt For Red October (the novel), Tom Clancy writes that in the Russian navy, a captain can be technically outranked by a subordinate (for instance, if the CO is a Captain Second Rank, but one of his crew - like the engineer - is a Captain First Rank), but still command them. Clancy is generally accurate on these things, so I'm guessing this is true.

In the Soviet/Russian navy (and most other navies), engineers were specialists who could never command a warship, so it makes sense that their seniority within their own branch did not affect the command structure of the vessel. The USN is somewhat unique in that it considers engineering to be part of the core skills of a line officer.

Whether it applies in other navies, such as the US Navy, is unclear.

USN regulations are very clear on the subject:

1004. Precedence of an Officer in
Command.

An officer, either of the line or of a staff corps, detailed to command by competent authority or who has succeeded to command, has precedence over all officers or other persons attached to the command of whatever rank and whether they are of the line or of a staff corps.​

--Justin