About Mirror Georgiou in ”Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2“

[fireproof78]

Except that we're talking about an event that occurred in the fictional world, so those are the rules that apply. It isn't treason in our world to act as a traitor against the fictional United Federation of Planets - but it certainly would be for characters in the show.

I think this is a weird case of almost Schrodinger style duality. On the one hand, yes, we are talking about a fictional character in a fictional world and that language has probably, as far as we can extrapolate, expanded to include new definitions. Likely, a new term or cannibalism has expanded to include such acts.

On the other side is the fact that we are an audience in the 21st century who do not current inhabit that world. We see the world through that lens, those definitions of our world, and those definitions encompass 21st understanding.

Ultimately, individuals will regard Georgiou in both ways and try to sort it out. From Georgiou's point of view she not a cannibal, as that was not part of her morality to regard Kelpians as on the same level as her own kind. Even if we, the audience, regard it as evil, that is based upon our own morality. And, now that she is in the Prime Universe we can absolutely judge her by that standard with her behaviors in the Prime Universe. But, from her point of view, this standard of morality is completely new.

 

[Mudd]

Yeah, there's been no better reasoning advanced for embracing Mirror Georgiou as a potential "good guy" and excusing her atrocities than that folks like the character. That dog don't hunt.

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, there's been no better reasoning advanced for embracing Mirror Georgiou as a potential "good guy" and excusing her atrocities than that folks like the character. That dog don't hunt.

Don't like her. That dog don't hunt for me.

 

[Michael]

Ultimately, individuals will regard Georgiou in both ways and try to sort it out. From Georgiou's point of view she not a cannibal, as that was not part of her morality to regard Kelpians as on the same level as her own kind. Even if we, the audience, regard it as evil, that is based upon our own morality. And, now that she is in the Prime Universe we can absolutely judge her by that standard with her behaviors in the Prime Universe. But, from her point of view, this standard of morality is completely new.

The question is, though, why should we be asking if she thinks it's wrong? Analyzing her mindset and moral code is interesting if you want to understand how and why she became that way in-universe. But in terms of this discussion here the more important question is whether we think her behavior is wrong, because the initial question was what the real world audience thinks about her character, not what she thinks about herself in-universe. Also, whether criminals themselves think their acts are wrong is only of marginal interest to those deciding whether what they did actually was a crime or not. Georgiou is a morally reprehensible “evil” character. I see no way around that, despite what others are trying to tell me here.

 

[fireproof78]

The question is, though, why should we be asking if she thinks it's wrong? Analyzing her mindset and moral code is interesting if you want to understand how and why she became that way in-universe. But in terms of this discussion here the more important question is whether we think her behavior is wrong, because the initial question was what the real world audience thinks about her character, not what she thinks about herself in-universe. Also, whether criminals themselves think their acts are wrong is only of marginal interest to those deciding whether what they did actually was a crime or not. Georgiou is a morally reprehensible “evil” character. I see no way around that, despite what others are trying to tell me here.

Ah, well, in that case, she is evil by my estimation.

Glad that's settled

 

[Mudd]

The question is, though, why should we be asking if she thinks it's wrong? Analyzing her mindset and moral code is interesting if you want to understand how and why she became that way in-universe. But in terms of this discussion here the more important question is whether we think her behavior is wrong, because the initial question was what the real world audience thinks about her character, not what she thinks about herself in-universe. Also, whether criminals themselves think their acts are wrong is only of marginal interest to those deciding whether what they did actually was a crime or not. Georgiou is a morally reprehensible “evil” character. I see no way around that, despite what others are trying to tell me here.

Exactly so.

 

[Starflight]

Frankly, I'm somewhat disturbed about how many people are excusing Georgiou's sadism because of Control/Leland being “not alive anymore” or “just a program”. Even if his pained reaction was somehow just simulated (which, as presented in the episode, is left rather unclear), it still exposes what a darkly twisted person Georgiou is for enjoying his visible pain. This reminds me of Kate Darling's fascinating experiments with people being asked to torture robots (and most people refusing to do so). Basically it comes down to simulated reactions triggering real emotions in (normal) human beings.

Aha, you say this, but don't tell me you've never beaten a machine up for catharsis. I frisbee'd my N64 down a flight of stairs when I was a kid after Pokemon Stadium pissed me off for the final time, and the level of sadistic joy I took in it makes Georgiou look like Picard.

Really though, if the show confirmed that Leland was definitely gone and Control was definitely not alive/sentient, I don't know if what Georgiou did could even be called sadism. What does bother me is that she keeps calling him Leland rather than Control, which not only makes the Leland/Control situation unclear and ambiguous to us as the audience, but also makes it feel awkwardly like she's enjoying beating the shit out of a person's reanimated corpse because she didn't like him much while he was alive. Which I guess is in character, but it definitely makes me hate the character at a time when the writers are presumably trying to nudge me towards liking her, or thinking she's "badass" or whatever.

 

[Mudd]

Aha, you say this, but don't tell me you've never beaten a machine up for catharsis.

Never. What would be the point?

I've slammed doors, but the doors were not the target.

 

[Starflight]

Play Pokemon Stadium and you'll see what I mean. It will also help if you happen to be an easily-angered child version of me.

 

[fireproof78]

 

[Starflight]

Ultimately, individuals will regard Georgiou in both ways and try to sort it out. From Georgiou's point of view she not a cannibal, as that was not part of her morality to regard Kelpians as on the same level as her own kind.

One thing the writers have so far missed as an opportunity is Saru-Georgiou scenes, I think. If she was raised to see Kelpiens as subhuman cattle, then meeting Saru, being under his direct command and realising he's just as much of a person as she is should be shocking and unnerving for her if she's got any kind of moral centre or heart that the writers plan to build on.

 

[Michael]

One thing the writers have so far missed as an opportunity is Saru-Georgiou scenes, I think. If she was raised to see Kelpiens as subhuman cattle, then meeting Saru, being under his direct command and realising he's just as much of a person as she is should be shocking and unnerving for her if she's got any kind of moral centre or heart that the writers plan to build on.

No, a scene like that would have spoon-fed you what's going on inside of the characters and do the thinking for you. It's not needed, because the authors are so clever, they want you to think for yourself. Or so I'm told.

To be serious for a second, I love your thinking and am convinced that the show needed exactly such a scene.

 

[Lord Garth]

One thing the writers have so far missed as an opportunity is Saru-Georgiou scenes, I think. If she was raised to see Kelpiens as subhuman cattle, then meeting Saru, being under his direct command and realising he's just as much of a person as she is should be shocking and unnerving for her if she's got any kind of moral centre or heart that the writers plan to build on.

No, a scene like that would spoon-fed you what's going on inside of the characters and do the thinking for you. It's not needed, because the authors are so clever, they want you to think for yourself. Or so I'm told.

To be serious for a second, I love your thinking and am convinced that the show needed exactly such a scene.

They sort of have that when Georgiou is impressed when she realizes Saru is familiar with Sun Tzu. It's a start, at least, because it's common ground.

 

[fireproof78]

One thing the writers have so far missed as an opportunity is Saru-Georgiou scenes, I think. If she was raised to see Kelpiens as subhuman cattle, then meeting Saru, being under his direct command and realising he's just as much of a person as she is should be shocking and unnerving for her if she's got any kind of moral centre or heart that the writers plan to build on.

I would like to see such a relationship explored further. Personally, I think the close quarters of being in the future and stranded far from anything familiar might prove an opportunity to explore this more.

 

[Lord Garth]

Well, I'm glad the thread has spawned some interesting discussion.

I agree. We ought to have a discussion about Tuvix some time.

 

[Michael]

I agree. We ought to have a discussion about Tuvix some time.

Yeah, this whole thing reminds me of a good ol' Tuvix thread as well. Considering both of us have wasted spent well over ten years on this board at this point, I imagine we already had that particular discussion in the past.

As long as we'll all agree Janeway murdered Tuvix it's all fine.

 

[USS Triumphant]

It has occurred to me that we don't actually know that Terrans/Georgiou *eat Kelpians*. We know they eat threat ganglia, but those fall out before Mirror Kelpians die / become berserker warriors for the Empire / whatever. Still kinda weird - a little like eating discarded deer antlers. And yes, Georgiou has made some comments about eating Saru - but she's also been shown to be a bit kinky. Maybe she's being *flirtatious*.

 

[Tuskin38]

I think it was implied that most of the dish was Kelpien, not only the ganglia.

 

[USS Triumphant]

For all we know, Emperor Georgiou already suspected Michael's true nature/origin, and wanted to gauge her reaction to a completely nonsense setup. "We'll tell her we're feeding her Kelpien, and if she doesn't call BS, we'll know something is up. I mean, we enslave Kelpiens, but we don't freaking EAT them. LOL."

Point is, the writers have ways to backpedal out of that one if they want to. I'm much less certain they have ways to back out of her comments about what she did to the Mirror Talosians, or the Mirror Klingons, or what she was willing to do to the "regular" Klingon homeworld.

Oh, btw, to the thread at large: I came back into the conversation, but the next person who decides to go to lecturing people about the difference between the real world and the fictional ones we're discussing like we don't know is going to hear at length about it. You're all a bunch of effing Star Trek nerds JUST LIKE I AM, or you wouldn't be spending time debating things at TrekBBS, so don't even try pulling that self-superior nerd-bashing shit.

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

One thing the writers have so far missed as an opportunity is Saru-Georgiou scenes, I think. If she was raised to see Kelpiens as subhuman cattle, then meeting Saru, being under his direct command and realising he's just as much of a person as she is should be shocking and unnerving for her if she's got any kind of moral centre or heart that the writers plan to build on.

Yes. They could show us how Georgiou was raised in a culture that were told Kelpiens were work animals and cattle, and thus had no problem eating Kelpians. However, upon getting to actually know a Kelpien (beyond knowing them as disposable work animals), she might come to have second thought about the custom.

I mean, think of how some cultures still eat whales. While I'm not saying whales are on the same intelligence level as Kelpiens, we know that whales are intelligent and sentient creatures. However, there are still people (such as the Japanese) who have been raised in a culture that perceives whales as a food, and ignores the recent studies of whale sentience and calls to end the practice of killing them for their resources.

Many people who understand the intelligence and sentience of whales and dolphins (some studies have arguably found them to be sapient as well) might rightfully find this Japanese cultural custom of eating whales reprehensible, but I doubt they would call the Japanese people who engaging in eating whales as "immutably evil people."