About Mirror Georgiou in ”Such Sweet Sorrow, Part 2“

[Starflight]

Seems like people might be talking at cross-purposes a little here. It seems like the point of contention isn't that Georgiou is "evil"/atrocious (allowing, of course, for the fact that she's from a different universe with a different moral code), but rather how the writers want us to receive her.

If they want us to side with her right now, as of the end of season two, they're still asking us to side with someone who committed planetary genocide (possibly more than once), kept a race of people as slaves and killed them to eat them, ran a fascistic empire worse than anything we've seen in the prime unvierse alpha quadrant, and has expressed regret for absolutely none of it, nor done anything to demonstrate a change in morals or desire for "redemption".

If you perceive that the writers are asking us to support the character (I'm not sure, personally - I think they're setting her up for a semi-redemption arc in S3 onwards), then it can feel like the writers are asking you to do the impossible.

I'm probably expressing this badly, but I think it comes down to whether or not you have faith in the writers to pull off the ridiculously difficult task they've set themselves of successfully redeeming Georgiou.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

IMHO, we're not being told to actually sympathize with Georgiou. Just because we can enjoy watching her gloat over Leland's death doesn't mean we're on her side. Fans can be like "wow, that is one evil bitch" while still thinking her reaction is funny.

I mean, just because you enjoy playing that old computer game Carmageddon doesn't 'mean you really want to go out and mow down innocent pedestrians. Same story here.

 

[Starflight]

Agreed, but I think the issue is that Georgiou grates against the overall tone of Discovery at the minute, for a lot of people. It's a show that mostly asks you to take it dead seriously. Carmageddon is hilarious, but if Picard started ramming his car into pedestrians and cackling as they exploded into blood and gore, it'd be tough to continue relating to him and the setting of TNG. I'm sure Patrick Stewart could act that scene though.

It's why I'm moderately excited for the Section 31 series as a chance to retool the character a little and put her in a series that suits her better.

 

[Alan Roi]

Carmageddon is hilarious, but if Picard started ramming his car into pedestrians and cackling as they exploded into blood and gore, it'd be tough to continue relating to him and the setting of TNG. I'm sure Patrick Stewart could act that scene though.

Yep. He's multi-talented.

 

[Alan Roi]

Seems like people might be talking at cross-purposes a little here. It seems like the point of contention isn't that Georgiou is "evil"/atrocious (allowing, of course, for the fact that she's from a different universe with a different moral code), but rather how the writers want us to receive her.

If they want us to side with her right now, as of the end of season two, they're still asking us to side with someone who committed planetary genocide (possibly more than once), kept a race of people as slaves and killed them to eat them, ran a fascistic empire worse than anything we've seen in the prime unvierse alpha quadrant, and has expressed regret for absolutely none of it, nor done anything to demonstrate a change in morals or desire for "redemption".

If you perceive that the writers are asking us to support the character (I'm not sure, personally - I think they're setting her up for a semi-redemption arc in S3 onwards), then it can feel like the writers are asking you to do the impossible.

I'm probably expressing this badly, but I think it comes down to whether or not you have faith in the writers to pull off the ridiculously difficult task they've set themselves of successfully redeeming Georgiou.

I fully expect these post descriptions of Georgiou to last full into the S31 series as, IMO. the people who have adopted the most reductive and simplistic view of what CBSAA is doing in general and what Discovery in particular are going to cling to such hot-take cartoonish talking points as long as they get positive feedback from the terms they use. From what I can perceive, being able to use the words Nazi Psychopath Cannibal all at once evokes a certain thrill for some.

 

[jfordny]

Seems like people might be talking at cross-purposes a little here. It seems like the point of contention isn't that Georgiou is "evil"/atrocious (allowing, of course, for the fact that she's from a different universe with a different moral code), but rather how the writers want us to receive her.

If they want us to side with her right now, as of the end of season two, they're still asking us to side with someone who committed planetary genocide (possibly more than once), kept a race of people as slaves and killed them to eat them, ran a fascistic empire worse than anything we've seen in the prime unvierse alpha quadrant, and has expressed regret for absolutely none of it, nor done anything to demonstrate a change in morals or desire for "redemption".

If you perceive that the writers are asking us to support the character (I'm not sure, personally - I think they're setting her up for a semi-redemption arc in S3 onwards), then it can feel like the writers are asking you to do the impossible.

I'm probably expressing this badly, but I think it comes down to whether or not you have faith in the writers to pull off the ridiculously difficult task they've set themselves of successfully redeeming Georgiou.

Here is an interview with Kurtzman and Kadin: https://trekmovie.com/2019/01/18/in...iou-at-star-trek-discovery-season-2-premiere/

A quote about about Georgiou and the Section 31 show:

And really, I think that we’ve all loved about Michelle Yeoh in this role, is, it’s not dark at all, and there’s something so delicious about it, and delicious about her relishing being in that part. So, our plan, it shouldn’t be dark at all, I think that we’re going to have a lot of fun with it.

Let's just say I don't see Mirror Georgiou - or Section 31 - the way Kadin does. And the fact that I don't like Section 31 or Mirror Georgiou doesn't mean I'm obtuse and missing some deep and profound writing.

 

[fireproof78]

Here is an interview with Kurtzman and Kadin: https://trekmovie.com/2019/01/18/in...iou-at-star-trek-discovery-season-2-premiere/

A quote about about Georgiou and the Section 31 show:

And really, I think that we’ve all loved about Michelle Yeoh in this role, is, it’s not dark at all, and there’s something so delicious about it, and delicious about her relishing being in that part. So, our plan, it shouldn’t be dark at all, I think that we’re going to have a lot of fun with it.

Let's just say I don't see Mirror Georgiou - or Section 31 - the way Kadin does. And the fact that I don't like Section 31 or Mirror Georgiou doesn't mean I'm obtuse and missing some deep and profound writing.

I don't see her that way either and I certainly don't like her. I don't expect to like her. But, I want to move past these labels to understand her.

 

[Mudd]

Seems like people might be talking at cross-purposes a little here. It seems like the point of contention isn't that Georgiou is "evil"/atrocious (allowing, of course, for the fact that she's from a different universe with a different moral code).

Not allowing for anything here. I'm completely comfortable calling a dictator who eats people "evil."

 

[Lord Garth]

There's no accounting for taste.

 

[eschaton]

Uhh...murder might be a more accurate term. Different species, not cannibalism. Still awful.

Some definitions of murder define it as the unlawful killing of another human, rather than the unlawful killing of another person. Thus one can argue that you could kill in cold blood all the Vulcans, Klingons, Andorians, Bajorans, etc you wanted, and not be a murderer.

Of course, the concept of murder has evolved in the Trekverse to include other sentient beings. Likewise, I don't think it's beyond the pale to think the definition of cannibalism has also evolved beyond what we find when we look in a dictionary in the early 21st century.

 

[fireproof78]

, I don't think it's beyond the pale to think the definition of cannibalism has also evolved beyond what we find when we look in a dictionary in the early 21 century

No doubt.

 

[SolarisOne]

Of course, the concept of murder has evolved in the Trekverse to include other sentient beings. Likewise, I don't think it's beyond the pale to think the definition of cannibalism has also evolved beyond what we find when we look in a dictionary in the early 21st century.

Doesn't particularly matter in terms of this discussion, does it? We happen to live in the real world, and in our world this word doesn't have that definition.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Doesn't particularly matter in terms of this discussion, does it? We happen to live in the real world, and in our world this word doesn't have that definition.

Except that we're talking about an event that occurred in the fictional world, so those are the rules that apply. It isn't treason in our world to act as a traitor against the fictional United Federation of Planets - but it certainly would be for characters in the show.

 

[Lord Garth]

Let me know when Georgiou eats someone now that she's in the Prime Universe and has been told that eating other sentient beings is forbidden by Federation law.

When she was in her own Universe and in her own jurisdiction, she broke no laws. And, once again, she didn't ask to be brought into the Prime Universe. Burnham brought her there. She's making the best of the situation she finds herself in now. And, whether you like it or not, so far she's following their rules.

Someone worse than her wouldn't be following the rules at all. If Georgiou were truly "the worst of the worst, beyond redemption" like some of you are making her out to be, she would've killed everyone, eaten Saru on sight, not become a Section 31 operative where she has to report to people, and never would've allowed L'Rell to have access to the bomb on Qo'noS.

Speaking of Qo'noS, for the "STD Sucks!" Contingent, I'll use an example from Holy Sacred TNG, with an episode that was produced while Gene Roddenberry was still alive, no less. Worf killed Duras in "Reunion". He killed him and it wasn't self-defense. He should be charged with murder. But Worf acted within Klingon Space on a Klingon Ship, following Klingon Law, and they considered the matter closed. Picard told Worf that he should resign if his culture is in conflict with his behavior and duties as a Starfleet Officer, then gave him a reprimand. Ow. That's gotta hurt.

Point is, the Federation can't be responsible for things non-citizens do outside of its jurisdiction. That's the less savory side of dealing with other cultures who have different values. The worst that happened was Picard said this is in conflict with Worf being a Starfleet Officer and gave him a reprimand as an alternative to Worf handing in his resignation.

And since someone else already brought it up, this is all fiction. Georgiou didn't eat anyone because she's not real. One writer had one idea, one showrunner had one idea, and now another writer and another showrunner have another. To quote William Shatner, "It's just a TV show!"

 

[eschaton]

Doesn't particularly matter in terms of this discussion, does it? We happen to live in the real world, and in our world this word doesn't have that definition.

From a story perspective aliens in Trek are treated as indistinguishable from humans. For example, we seldom see alien races enslaved and happy about it. The few times we do (like in the Dominion) the show is explicit about this being a bad thing.

 

[USS Triumphant]

Some of you are starting to sound like my step-father, back when he used to ridicule me for my involved Trek fandom and other nerdy interests. And for that reason, I'm out. Y'all can figure this out without my involvement.

 

[fireproof78]

Some of you are starting to sound like my step-father, back when he used to ridicule me for my involved Trek fandom and other nerdy interests. And for that reason, I'm out. Y'all can figure this out without my involvement.

Sorry to hear this.

 

[Delta Vega]

If I was Saru, I'd be watching my Kelpian arse in case Emperor Geo decides she fancies a bit of raw meat while in the distant future
No Federation there to lay down the moral code

 

[Mudd]

Some definitions of murder define it as the unlawful killing of another human, rather than the unlawful killing of another person. Thus one can argue that you could kill in cold blood all the Vulcans, Klingons, Andorians, Bajorans, etc you wanted, and not be a murderer.

Of course, the concept of murder has evolved in the Trekverse to include other sentient beings. Likewise, I don't think it's beyond the pale to think the definition of cannibalism has also evolved beyond what we find when we look in a dictionary in the early 21st century.

Cannibalism is the most accurate word for what Georgiou did. She's an irredeemable villain, but the STD writers will insist on it anyway.

 

[Michael]

Well, I'm glad the thread has spawned some interesting discussion. I'll try to address some of the key arguments people seem to be making:

• Some people are saying the writers are deliberately writing Georgiou as sadistic to launch a discussion among the audience about whether she's redeemable as a character or whether there are nature or nurture reasons for her being the way she is. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. Not in the show itself, and certainly not when I consider the producers' statements, which make it sound like they just view her as an unobjectionable cool and badass hero character, and not some clever catalyst to have a meaningful conversation about the nature of good and evil. Maybe they will get there in season three and beyond, but as it stands they are asking us to accept a character with pretty reprehensible morals as a hero in a Star Trek show. Most seem to be cool with that, but I must admit I find it a bit hard.
  
  
• I completely disagree with the argument that what Georgiou did in her home Mirror Universe somehow wasn't wrong, evil or criminal, because it happened in another universe. Thinking this through in the real world for a second: If someone is a mass-murdering dictator in one country/society, they don't suddenly become an impeccable good guy when they travel to another country. Of course we have to judge Georgiou's acts by our moral standards; they're all we have. Why should we judge her by some alien code of ethics and behavior? Considering those differing moral codes and where she's coming from is key to understanding her and why she became that way, sure. But the fact that she's done evil and wrong things should be a given and not up for debate. This is not about how she sees her own behavior; it's about how we the audience see and understand it.
  
  
• Frankly, I'm somewhat disturbed about how many people are excusing Georgiou's sadism because of Control/Leland being “not alive anymore” or “just a program”. Even if his pained reaction was somehow just simulated (which, as presented in the episode, is left rather unclear), it still exposes what a darkly twisted person Georgiou is for enjoying his visible pain. This reminds me of Kate Darling's fascinating experiments with people being asked to torture robots (and most people refusing to do so). Basically it comes down to simulated reactions triggering real emotions in (normal) human beings.