AAARRRGGGHHH!!! Star Trek: Voyager: Children of the Storm (ePub)

[Idran]

Could you indicate an example of an improperly formatted line in the css, and what you've done to correct this? Then Christopher and everyone might see that they actually are mistakes.

Go to B&N and download the free sample ePub and extract the CSS and also download the CSS I've linked and you can then compare the two and see what the differences are between the two.

Could you post the excerpts of what's wrong? You've already got both of them, it's just a quick C&P of the problem portion and its correction to demonstrate the error. Saves work too, that way it's only one person that has to go to effort instead of everyone else in the thread checking for themselves. Especially for folks that might not have any familiarity with CSS and so wouldn't necessarily know what to look for.

He's not saying he in particular doesn't believe you, he's saying that your position would be stronger if you showed that bit yourself.

 

[JWolf]

On a forum, this is the format. But an eBook doesn't have to be that format. I find the space between the paragraphs to be a problem. The lack of indents too. I find it off-putting enough to want to fix it. If I received a printed book that was formatted that way, I'd be returning to the shop I bought it from.

The italics in the first sample are just the letters slanted. This is what happens when you take a non-italic font and make it italics on the fly. The second sample has italics that are true italics. Some of the letters in the true italics are different then the non-italic version and they look nicer. The first sample's italics just don't look right.

Well, clearly you're very, very picky about these things, but not everyone is going to react the same way. Most other people in this thread don't seem to be as upset about these matters as you are. You can't expect a publisher to bend over backward to accommodate you and you alone. Maybe you just need to learn to be less sensitive, to focus less on the way the letters are shaped and more on the actual story. Frankly I don't give a flying fig if the italics are "true" italics, whatever that means, or just slanted letters. Hell, I didn't even know there was a difference. Either way, it's recognizable which words are being emphasized. The meaning gets across, and that's what matters.

If the first sample was how the eBook was supposed to look, there would be no embedded fonts, no code to make use of them and no code to look like the second sample. But S&S did include the fonts, they did include the code. The problem is that they botched the code so it doesn't work properly. But it exists. This is the problem. They have good intentions to make the eBook look nice. But the actual execution fails. If S&S was making the eBook look like the first sample and I wanted it to look like the second sample, that's would be my doing.

As for things like the italics, true italics is a separate font based on the original font to look nice slanted and to have some variation in some of the letter so it doesn't just look like a slanted version of the base font. Taking the base font and slanting it gives it a look that is not as ascetically pleasing.

Do you really want S&S making errors in your name?

Of course not, but typos are an inescapable fact of publishing. Even with dozens of eyes going over a text over and over again, there are always going to be some errors that get through, and some new errors that are added with each new iteration of the process. And you have yet to show me that these eBooks actually do have a disproportionate number of actual errors compared to what a print book would have. You seem to be more upset about simple variations in font and formatting, things that aren't actually mistakes at all. What you denounce as laziness or incompetence seems to be mostly a difference in style between print and electronic formats. So frankly you're coming off as the J Who Cried Wolf, without a lot of credibility to your accusations of gross negligence. At this point I have no reason to believe that the eBook compilers are practicing less diligence than the typesetters and proofreaders for the physical books, since you haven't actually shown any evidence of that yet. (And please, if you do post any more screencaps, shrink them down so they don't stretch out the thread, or just post links.)

I will take note of the errors in this eBook and post them here so you can see if they are eBook related or are that way in the print version. But some of of the recent errors have been things like Star-fleet and broken paragraphs. Those are related to the eBook and not the pBook.

As for the screen caps, if I post any more, I'll put up thumbnails or links so they won't be so large.

Would it hurt anyone/anything if the authors mentioned the state of the eBooks to say the editor?

As you've been told over and over again, the editor has no more control over that stage of the process than the writer does. You should know this by now. So why are you still asking this question?

The reason I'm saying that is that the editor does work for S&S and maybe the editor can then contact the eBook department and let them know of the problems. I've not found a direct way to contact anyone in the eBook department. So if you have need to contact them, how? That's the problem.

 

[Idran]

The reason I'm saying that is that the editor does work for S&S and maybe the editor can then contact the eBook department and let them know of the problems. I've not found a direct way to contact anyone in the eBook department. So if you have need to contact them, how? That's the problem.

Maybe not a direct way for the eBook department, but there is this: http://www.simonandschuster.biz/booksellers/customer-service

If you have received a defective Simon & Schuster product, please contact our customer service department for instructions on how to proceed.

Please have the following information handy:
1. Invoice Number
2. Account Number
3. ISBN-13 of the defective product.

 

[Christopher]

I will take note of the errors in this eBook and post them here so you can see if they are eBook related or are that way in the print version. But some of of the recent errors have been things like Star-fleet and broken paragraphs. Those are related to the eBook and not the pBook.

Well, an errant hyphen in the middle of a word suggests a word that was formatted to wrap around at the end of a line on the printed page. If the margins are different in the electronic text, then the hyphen would still be there but in the middle of the line. So it could just be a faithful transcription of the printed book's text without corrections being made to adjust it for eBook form. I've seen it before.

The reason I'm saying that is that the editor does work for S&S and maybe the editor can then contact the eBook department and let them know of the problems. I've not found a direct way to contact anyone in the eBook department. So if you have need to contact them, how? That's the problem.

You've been posting these complaints for months. Has it occurred to you that some of the authors who frequent this board have already contacted the editor about it? Just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. The editorial staff of Simon & Schuster is under no obligation to report to you personally about its actions. If there's been no change, it probably means that the editor can't actually do anything about it.

 

[Rosalind]

In fairness to JWolf's pickiness of ebooks' formatting, I think it's best to keep in mind the price of an ebook. Now, I remember reading somewhere, some editor said ebooks are similar in price to pbook, because the amount of work is about the same:

While pbook has the printing, shipping and warehouse costs (which is only a tiny part of the cost of the book), ebook need to be re-checked for electronic publication (so the hyphens in the example above should be gone), each one needs to be tested on all possible ways the readers will read them (so, not only they need to be done in several different versions, but work with all the various ereaders).

Taking all of that into account, I was ready to concede that an ebook maybe should cost around the same price as a pbook. Now, if publisher simply get the electronic file of the book, slap the css into the file and release it as an ebook, then I don't think that justifies the cost.

I actually don't have any problem with version 1 of the example shown, I read my ebook on an iPad and computer screen, so it's easier for me when there's a space between paragraphs. But, I can understand how that must grate for ereaders, which are suppose to look like paper books, and if I get a paper book (that's not a PhD thesis) in that format, I won't be happy too.

Unfortunately, from the sound of it, JWolf never managed to get a reply from S&S about the problem. However, JWolf, you also know that authors have no power over this at all, and from what Christopher said above, it sounds like they couldn't do anything more. I think this thread was quite useful as it gave me an understanding of what you've been talking about, but I can quite safely say that most people in this forum is tired of your continued post in every single new book thread about how bad the ebook is. So, I suggest you keep your future ebook related posts to the ebook thread only in this forum, and try contacting custom service of S&S again, or complain about the problem to S&S's board where someone connected might just read it.

 

[Christopher]

While pbook has the printing, shipping and warehouse costs (which is only a tiny part of the cost of the book), ebook need to be re-checked for electronic publication (so the hyphens in the example above should be gone), each one needs to be tested on all possible ways the readers will read them (so, not only they need to be done in several different versions, but work with all the various ereaders).

Taking all of that into account, I was ready to concede that an ebook maybe should cost around the same price as a pbook. Now, if publisher simply get the electronic file of the book, slap the css into the file and release it as an ebook, then I don't think that justifies the cost.

Except that, as you say, the actual stuff that differs between a print book and an eBook is only a tiny part of what goes into the creation of either. Most of the work that people need to be compensated for is done before that stage -- the writing, the editing, the proofing and copyediting, the cover art, the logo design, the promotional effort, the contracts, etc. So if there were a difference based on labor, it would be a small fraction of the price, a matter of cents.

 

[MarciaCat]

Oh goodie, I just was about to go buy the e-book of this and Blind Man's Bluff then I saw this. I may not be super picky, but I do prefer a proper paragraph indent and proper italics. I may just go back to paper books. I know just enough to liberate and convert formats but not fix the css.

 

[bfollowell]

OK, I'm going to gripe about this for this one response and then, that's it. Like JWolf, I've complained about the poor quality of a select number of Star Trek ebooks and the defective/lost functionality in many of them.

You guys are right. These ebooks are all readable. But, when S&S adds in special fonts, etc. and then incorrectly codes the css so that these aren't available (book after book after book), basically they're wasting their time and efforts and the consumer is not getting something that they've paid good money for. Most of you wouldn't tolerate this from any other industry so why is it acceptable here?

Being a maintenance supervisor for a major auto manufacturer, most of my analogies tend to run in that direction. Let me spin another one for you. You buy an automobile for basic transportation, correct? Now, let's say you go drop 30 large on a brand new car and you get home to find out the AC doesn't work. The AC (the css in this case) is installed in the vehicle but something about it isn't right and it isn't doing what it's supposed to. It won't cool the vehicle. But that doesn't interfere with the basic use of the vehicle, transportation in this case. You can still drive it, it steers, it brakes, it will get you where you need to go. You're just hot while you get there. Since your basic need is met, does that mean you don't have a gripe? Of course not. You paid for a car with AC, you should darned well get a car with working AC. The same goes for these ebooks. We paid good, hard-earned money for an ebook with proper text and paragraph formatting and working fonts and S&S didn't deliver. Unfortunately this is far from an isolated incident. It's happened time and time again.

Now, if I have this problem with a car and it isn't fixed, I won't return to GM or Toyota or BMW or whoever. I'll go somewhere else for my transportation needs. When it comes to Star Trek novels though, I have nowhere else to go. So all I can do is complain a little and hope someone listens. Unlike Jon though, I gave up on this long ago. It wasn't getting me anywhere and I figured, regardless of where I was doing my complaining, everyone else was tired of hearing about it.

Now I just buy my ebooks, remove the drm and fix them myself. I know that I'm going to have to do it most of the time and I know how and that's just the way it is. It still doesn't mean I'm happy about it though or that I should be.

Jon, I agree that it's probably past time for you to stop complaining about it on here but I certainly understand your frustration. I feel your pain brother.

In the end, this is a public forum and Jon can continue to gripe about this with every single release if he wishes. All of us are just as free to ignore his posts if that's our desire.

- Byron

 

[BrotherBenny]

While pbook has the printing, shipping and warehouse costs (which is only a tiny part of the cost of the book), ebook need to be re-checked for electronic publication (so the hyphens in the example above should be gone), each one needs to be tested on all possible ways the readers will read them (so, not only they need to be done in several different versions, but work with all the various ereaders).

Taking all of that into account, I was ready to concede that an ebook maybe should cost around the same price as a pbook. Now, if publisher simply get the electronic file of the book, slap the css into the file and release it as an ebook, then I don't think that justifies the cost.

Except that, as you say, the actual stuff that differs between a print book and an eBook is only a tiny part of what goes into the creation of either. Most of the work that people need to be compensated for is done before that stage -- the writing, the editing, the proofing and copyediting, the cover art, the logo design, the promotional effort, the contracts, etc. So if there were a difference based on labor, it would be a small fraction of the price, a matter of cents.

Christopher, I see where you're coming from on this, but the file needs to be copyedited or proofed again once it makes it to the eBook stage so that basic textual errors or css errors aren't there. For example, on the Kindle version of CotS there was a line with a gap in the middle. There were words at the beginning and end of the line, but not in the middle, because there may have been an extra space that wasn't removed or something.

The simple fact of the matter is, whoever is responsible for making sure the CSS works on all platforms is not doing their job properly. Considering that they are probably earning a mid-to-high five figure salary if they are directly employed by S&S (though I suspect they are not) or a high two or three figure hourly rate if it's outsourced, one should expect a professional job.

Now, if that person is overworked and just doing a cursory check to satisfy the bosses at least on one platform before moving on to the next book, then they need help or to be replaced. If this was any other industry, it would have happened a long time ago. I suspect that because widespread eBook use is still confusing the hell out of the publishing industry, they're concentrating on the big stuff (how to make money from eBooks in addition to print books) the small stuff like proper formatting for eBooks is a low priority.

 

[Christopher]

^Err, okay, but that's a totally different point than what I was addressing, which was the question of price difference between paper and electronic books.

 

[Therin of Andor]

when S&S adds in special fonts, etc. and then incorrectly codes the css so that these aren't available (book after book after book), basically they're wasting their time and efforts and the consumer is not getting something that they've paid good money for.

Um, I thought it was discussed that the special fonts aren't necessarily added, but the option was there, in the original standard Pocket template, for the e-editor to turn them on if he/she so chose. Have you considered that the code may have been deactivated because the fonts weren't proving to be compatible with all e-reader devices?

 

[bfollowell]

Um, I thought it was discussed that the special fonts aren't necessarily added, but the option was there, in the original standard Pocket template, for the e-editor to turn them on if he/she so chose. Have you considered that the code may have been deactivated because the fonts weren't proving to be compatible with all e-reader devices?

No, you're correct, that hadn't occurred to me and I must've missed that part of the discussion. It pops every time a new ebook is released and I don't read every single reply.

Still, if that's the case, it isn't that the font code isn't just included in the css. The fonts themselves are included in the file as well. Including the fonts as well as the code, and not turning them on just adds several meg to a file that should easily be less than 1 MB. Very wasteful and inefficient if you ask me. Yes, my reader has several GB of storage but why be wasteful?

Personally, I don't think that's it at all but you're right, it is a possibility, no matter how slim, and I hadn't thought of it.

- Byron

 

[JWolf]

when S&S adds in special fonts, etc. and then incorrectly codes the css so that these aren't available (book after book after book), basically they're wasting their time and efforts and the consumer is not getting something that they've paid good money for.

Um, I thought it was discussed that the special fonts aren't necessarily added, but the option was there, in the original standard Pocket template, for the e-editor to turn them on if he/she so chose. Have you considered that the code may have been deactivated because the fonts weren't proving to be compatible with all e-reader devices?

In this case, there is code to activate the fonts. It's just wrong and doesn't work. They even put in a font family they've not actually used at all. Fonts in an ePub that are not used make the ePub larger then it needs to be. They put in the code as though they were going to use it and then either something is botched or left out. I've never seen any other ePub that has embedded fonts where the fonts are not turned on/used.

Oh goodie, I just was about to go buy the e-book of this and Blind Man's Bluff then I saw this. I may not be super picky, but I do prefer a proper paragraph indent and proper italics. I may just go back to paper books. I know just enough to liberate and convert formats but not fix the css.

I have not read Blind Man's Bluff yet. But I did look at the formatting and that one looks pretty good actually. I can't say if there are any textual errors. But it's one of the better made Trek eBooks in a while.

 

[JWolf]

^Err, okay, but that's a totally different point than what I was addressing, which was the question of price difference between paper and electronic books.

But there is one thing about the price of the eBook vs. the pBook that nobody (in this thread) has yet mentioned. If S&S is going to price the eBook the same or similar enough to the pBook, then why will S&S allow sales/discounts on the pBook and no sale/discount on the eBook? What is it about the eBook that makes it different that it's not allowed to have a discount? The answer is nothing at all. So in fact, because we can get a discount for the pBook, that makes the eBook more expensive and when we get an eBook that has errors in the CSS as well as errors in the text that are not in the pBook, we are getting less for more money.

Ever since S&S went to the agency model, it seems like (I could be wrong here) they've stopped caring about the quality of their Star trek eBooks. Watching the Clock didn't display the italics for the ePub and the Kindle versions. So regardless of the formatting or the font, that's inexcusable. I noticed this the first time I displayed the eBook and that took me all of what 2-3 minutes to notice this.

From what I am guessing, S&S makes the ePub and then the ePub gets converted to Mobipocket for use on the Kindle. It seems also, that the eBook is made and that nobody is bothering to actually take a look to see that it's come out the way it was supposed to. They just create it however they create it and then it's said to be done. No looking at it, no reading it to find any textual/formatting errors. It's just done sight unseen and sent out to the unsuspecting public. I'm also guessing that they use a PDF file as the source for the eBook and that brings with it another set of problems with errors as well.

Obviously, S&S has the text as they print the pBook. Do the authors hand in a Word processing document that has all the know errors corrected so it's as error free as anyone knows? Does the pBook get proofed after an initial print or proof galley made? If so, the eBook should also have a proofing as the way S&S is making it errors not in the pBook get added in.

So if the costs of the eBook are similar to the pBook, then we should be getting the same level of care in the preparation.

It's said that the authors cannot do anything about the eBooks problems. But here is a new idea. How about asking for a copy of the eBook version and then doing a read through to proof it and then reporting the errors back to S&S? I have no idea if that would work or is even possible.

 

[MarciaCat]

But there is one thing about the price of the eBook vs. the pBook that nobody (in this thread) has yet mentioned. If S&S is going to price the eBook the same or similar enough to the pBook, then why will S&S allow sales/discounts on the pBook and no sale/discount on the eBook? What is it about the eBook that makes it different that it's not allowed to have a discount? The answer is nothing at all. So in fact, because we can get a discount for the pBook, that makes the eBook more expensive and when we get an eBook that has errors in the CSS as well as errors in the text that are not in the pBook, we are getting less for more money.

Ever since S&S went to the agency model, it seems like (I could be wrong here) they've stopped caring about the quality of their Star trek eBooks. Watching the Clock didn't display the italics for the ePub and the Kindle versions. So regardless of the formatting or the font, that's inexcusable. I noticed this the first time I displayed the eBook and that took me all of what 2-3 minutes to notice this.

From what I am guessing, S&S makes the ePub and then the ePub gets converted to Mobipocket for use on the Kindle. It seems also, that the eBook is made and that nobody is bothering to actually take a look to see that it's come out the way it was supposed to. They just create it however they create it and then it's said to be done. No looking at it, no reading it to find any textual/formatting errors. It's just done sight unseen and sent out to the unsuspecting public. I'm also guessing that they use a PDF file as the source for the eBook and that brings with it another set of problems with errors as well.

Obviously, S&S has the text as they print the pBook. Do the authors hand in a Word processing document that has all the know errors corrected so it's as error free as anyone knows? Does the pBook get proofed after an initial print or proof galley made? If so, the eBook should also have a proofing as the way S&S is making it errors not in the pBook get added in.

So if the costs of the eBook are similar to the pBook, then we should be getting the same level of care in the preparation.

It's said that the authors cannot do anything about the eBooks problems. But here is a new idea. How about asking for a copy of the eBook version and then doing a read through to proof it and then reporting the errors back to S&S? I have no idea if that would work or is even possible.

I'm not an expert on e-book formatting and such but I do agree with Jon that the quality of the Trek e-books has gone down in the last year or two. I don't know whether it's feasible for authors to check over each e-book format of their books but I do like the idea.

My 2 cents on the samples Jon posted: the first one is legible, but not worth paying full price for; when I buy an e-book I expect the content to resemble the paper book version. I prefer the second sample, maybe with a bit of margin added.

 

[JWolf]

No margins look better on my 650 then if does in ADE. I've removed the margins for my 650. If I was reading with ADE for Windows, I'd have some amount of margins to look better.