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A theory for the supersized Abramsverse fleet.

Black Freighter

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The sheer size of the USS Kelvin and her 800-strong crew creates a number of problems. She apparently exists in both the Prime Universe (PU) and Abramsverse (Ab), her destruction having been accepted as the source of the juncture between the two timelines, yet she’s much larger than any ship Starfleet apparently possessed until well into the 24th-century. It’s possible that the Kelvin was in fact designed to be an experimental long-range expeditionary vessel. In the Ab, the Enterprise is the first vessel to undertake a five-year mission, but it’s possible that in both the PU and Ab the Kelvin was the first to carry out, perhaps, a four-year mission, explaining the presence of families on-board, just like the Enterprise-D. Her success in the PU not only demonstrated to Starfleet that it was possible to streamline such missions with much smaller ships and crews for the sake of efficiency, but was also so successful that Starfleet honoured her by bestowing her arrowhead insignia on the entire fleet, as it appears in Star Trek Discovery, though this was eventually (and for a somewhat brief period) limited to the flagship in favour of unique mission patches once again. In the Ab, the adoption of the same symbol fleet-wide would simply be indicative of how profoundly her fate had effected the morale of the Federation and its turn towards being a more militant and assertive power. This could be backed up by the presence of a model of the Kelvin alongside other noteworthy ships in both the final episode of the PU but non-canon Star Trek Continues and in Marcus’s office in Into Darkness.


In the Ab, however, the destruction of such a large and heavily armed starship, perhaps even Starfleet’s most powerful, at the hands of a mysterious vessel several times larger than herself, shocked the Federation to such an extent that starship design was completely rethought. As the World Wars proved, there’s nothing like war or the threat of conflict to bring about revolutionary technologies (such as jets, rockets and nuclear arms). A major clue to support this theory is the PU model of the USS Biddeford NCC 0718 in Admiral Alexander Marcus’s office. It’s possible that even in the PU, the Constitution Class was in late stages of planning even as the Kelvin was in service in 2233, the year she was destroyed in the Ab. As his involvement in the design and construction of the USS Vengeance shows, Marcus was heavily involved in the development of advanced starship design.

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The model of the Biddeford suggests that the Constitution Class had already been designed, but the shocking loss of the Kelvin provoked Marcus and his department to go back to the drawing board and redesign it several times larger and more powerful. Following the attack, the name and registry was reassigned to a Newton Class while the Constitution Class was entirely redesigned. Judging by the Vengeance, Marcus had clearly come to the conclusion that this approach was best. This would explain the change from the PU Enterprise’s construction at the San Francisco Shipyards to the Ab Riverside Shipyard- the dramatic change in the construction specifications necessitating a much larger area, such as can be found in rural Iowa. Without the destruction of the Kelvin in the PU, this approach was never even considered, leading to a much smaller Constitution Class. It also explains why the Klingon Empire retreated from conflict with the Federation in the Ab, finding its overpowered fleet too difficult to contend with. It may also explain the confusing registry of the Constellation NCC 1017. The Biddeford and Constellation may have both been planned as test-ships before the Constitution was finally commissioned and named as the first true member of her class, explaining the early registry numbers.


To hypothesise, the destruction of an entire fleet composed of these massive ships at Vulcan at the hands of Nero and the subsequent destruction of the Narada brought about largely by a small boarding party convinced Starfleet that it was taking a poor approach, compounded further by the revelation that the aggressor had in fact originated not just from the distant future but from a parallel universe. This would explain why a model of the Vengeance can be found in Marcus’s office despite the project supposedly being top-secret: even before the destruction of Vulcan, Starfleet was planning to construct the Dreadnought Class but scrapped it, only to have the vessel built in secret by Marcus anyway, likely with the complicity of others in the Federation Council and Admiralty who were likewise unconvinced that the solution didn’t lie with immense vessels.

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This change in policy came about too late to disrupt other gargantuan and fundamentally flawed construction projects, such as the Starbase Yorktown, the near destruction of which at the hands of one former MACO demonstrating further the inadequacies of this approach. Needless to say, with engineering expertise and crew training now having become accustomed to ships on this scale, a return to more modest sizes was only slowly untaken. The Ab Enterprise-A, though of a new class to her predecessor, remained on the same massive scale.


The logic of both the PU and Ab Starfleets is based on proportionality. The PU Starfleet was, until its encounter with Borg, exposed to rival powers that remained on roughly the same technological level as itself, maintaining militaries of similar proportions and capacities in more-or-less even playing ground, despite its multipolarity. Even encounters with advanced species such as the First Federation were judged benign enough as to not necessitate any real overhaul of the fleet. The Ab Starfleet, however, was threatened relatively early on by a relentlessly hostile foreign power about which it knew nothing. For all it knew, the Narada could have been only the vanguard of a much larger force, necessitating a radical militarisation program. The PU Starfleet’s encounter with the Borg likewise necessitated a massive build-up of forces, including the return to service of antique vessels such as the Miranda Class, and a shake-up in starship design, bringing about classes of tougher ships oriented more towards warfare than to peaceful exploration such as the Defiant, Akira and Sovereign Classes, an approach that saw it claim victory in the Dominion War. In other words, encounters with advanced hostile species in both the PU and Ab saw rapid developments in ship design, though in very different ways.
 
Was it ever said in TOS, that the Connies were the biggest ships?
I think there would be bigger ships, for supplies, for troop transports etc.
In the TOS FJ Technical Manual there were dreadnoughts that were bigger than the connies. Dreadnoughts I guess were used in actual skirmishes. Connies were probably all rounders.
I reckon the Kelvin and Enterprise were performing different tasks. These tasks may have coincided but with families on board I'd guess the Kelvin to be less of a battleship than the Enterprise.
 
The sheer size of the USS Kelvin and her 800-strong crew creates a number of problems. She apparently exists in both the Prime Universe (PU) and Abramsverse (Ab), her destruction having been accepted as the source of the juncture between the two timelines, yet she’s much larger than any ship Starfleet apparently possessed until well into the 24th-century.
Uh, have you not seen Discovery yet? It's supposed to be Prime Universe. You need to update your theories a bit...
cTE1hIt.jpg
 
The sheer size of the USS Kelvin and her 800-strong crew
800 people, unknown how many were "crew." It's primary role in Starfleet could have been as a transport, which would be one possible explaination for it size.
She apparently exists in both the Prime Universe (PU) and Abramsverse (Ab),
Never mentioned (iirc) in the prime universe, unless you believe that the beginning of ST'09 was the prime universe, which I don't.
Was it ever said in TOS, that the Connies were the biggest ships
There something to that effect in the TOS writer's guide, but it never made it's way into a episode or a movie.
 
OK- 'crew' was the wrong term to use- my idea there was that perhaps the Ent-D wasn't the first to incorporate families in her compliment.

I think my theory stands though- assuming connies weren't the largest ships Starfleet made until that point, I still think it's possible that it did build large ships such as Shenzou, Discovery and Kelvin before deciding that it just wasn't practical- and opted for smaller, tougher vessels.After all, we all know that the Defiant was easily superior than ships much larger than itself when it came to combat vessels. If we accept your chart, King Daniel Beyond, we know that the Excelsior Class was considered one of the fleet's finest designs, given its service well into the 24th-century. We didn't see the much larger Crossfield Class (of the kind Discovery belongs to) in service during the Dominion War, but we saw classes such as the Oberth and Miranda classes, which I assume date back to the same era.
 
Was it ever said in TOS, that the Connies were the biggest ships?
There something to that effect in the TOS writer's guide, but it never made it's way into a episode or a movie.
While it is indeed stated* that the Enterprise "is the largest and most modern type vessel in the Starfleet Service," it also says in a later paragraph that:

"The Engineering Section
(to which the two engine nacelles are attached)
is equally large and complex, contains at the
rear a hangar deck large enough to hangar a
whole fleet of today's jet liners
. "​

which is clearly not an accurate description of the ship, as it was visually depicted in the TV series. I think allowance could reasonably be made for some unwritten adjustments concerning the relative sizes of things post-composition of the original manual, including that there may, after all, be some ships designed for other functions which are larger in size and/or volume than a Constitution-class starship.


* in third revision of writers' guide, dated April 1967
 
Never mentioned (iirc) in the prime universe, unless you believe that the beginning of ST'09 was the prime universe, which I don't.

So the Kelvin and her crew just randomly popped into existence right before Nero came through the black hole?
 
So the Kelvin and her crew just randomly popped into existence right before Nero came through the black hole?

The explanation I've commonly seen is that the Prime Universe divergence means several major, future time travel events from times after the divergence to times before the divergence will not occur or may occur differently (e.g. City on the Edge of Forever, the Whale Probe incident, the Borg invasion of 2373), meaning the past of the Abramsverse may well be changed as well as its future.

We could be watching the already-altered past of the Abramsverse at the start of ST:09, a replay of its altered history after the divergence becomes a fixed point in this branched universe's timeline.
 
The explanation I've commonly seen is that the Prime Universe divergence means several major, future time travel events from times after the divergence to times before the divergence will not occur or may occur differently (e.g. City on the Edge of Forever, the Whale Probe incident, the Borg invasion of 2373), meaning the past of the Abramsverse may well be changed as well as its future.

We could be watching the already-altered past of the Abramsverse at the start of ST:09, a replay of its altered history after the divergence becomes a fixed point in this branched universe's timeline.

Is that that theory that Okuda mentioned in the new Encyclopedia but that no one in the actual films have stated?
 
Is that that theory that Okuda mentioned in the new Encyclopedia but that no one in the actual films have stated?

It's not on screen canon, that's for sure, I've just seen it repeated on /r/DaystromInstitute over at reddit.

I haven't bought the new Encyclopedia, but if Okuda is pushing it that certainly lends credence though. His and Sternbach's works are about as close to canon as Star Trek gets in print.

It just strikes me as a fairly plausible and neat way to explain why what we've seen of the Kelvin universe looks so different before the Narada even arrives.
 
I haven't bought the new Encyclopedia, but if Okuda is pushing it that certainly lends credence though. His and Sternbach's works are about as close to canon as Star Trek gets in print.

Unless you can get it for like 50 bucks (or the English equivalent), don't bother. It's not worth it, IMHO. As for Okuda's credibility, he had zero to do with the Abrams films other than adding their info to the Encyclopedia and positing his own personal theory in it, so AFAIAC his opinions don't hold water unless they are canonically stated in the films. YMMV.

It just strikes me as a fairly plausible and neat way to explain why what we've seen of the Kelvin universe looks so different before the Narada even arrives.

But we never saw how the prime universe looked between the end of ENT (2161) and the year 2233, so we have nothing to base it on what looks "different" or not.
 
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But we never saw how the prime universe looked between the end of ENT (2161) and the year 2233, so we have nothing to base it on what looks "different" or not.

I'm not sure I agree with the theory either. Just putting it in writing. I do have a hard time with the in-universe fit of the USS Kelvin, but it's not totally beyond the pale, so I'd have to sit myself on the fence, personally speaking.
 
I'm not sure I agree with the theory either. Just putting it in writing. I do have a hard time with the in-universe fit of the USS Kelvin, but it's not totally beyond the pale, so I'd have to sit myself on the fence, personally speaking.

To be honest, I didn't have an issue with the Kelvin until its official size was given. But since it seems that large ships are the norm for new Trek, I've just gone with the flow.
 
It's not on screen canon, that's for sure, I've just seen it repeated on /r/DaystromInstitute over at reddit.

I haven't bought the new Encyclopedia, but if Okuda is pushing it that certainly lends credence though. His and Sternbach's works are about as close to canon as Star Trek gets in print.

It just strikes me as a fairly plausible and neat way to explain why what we've seen of the Kelvin universe looks so different before the Narada even arrives.
Here's the Encyclopedia entry
QFmO1Lu.jpg

Unless you can get it for like 50 bucks (or the English equivalent), don't bother. It's not worth it, IMHO. As for Okuda's credibility, he had zero to do with the Abrams films other than adding their info to the Encyclopedia and positing his own personal theory in it, so AFAIAC his opinions don't hold water unless they are canonically stated in the films. YMMV.
I once read he did some last-minute, uncredited work on Kelvin screengraphics or something like that.

Also worth noting that similar sentiment was expressed by Beyond co-writer and Kelvin Trek movie star Simon Pegg.
But we never saw how the prime universe looked between the end of ENT (2161) and the year 2233, so we have nothing to base it on what looks "different" or not.
I used to subscribe to that way of thinking, but really at the very least the huge USS Kelvin and all the ships from Discovery at the very least violate the intent of the TOS writers and producers, who say in their writers' guide that the Enterprise is the biggest and most advanced ship humanity has ever built.

The Kelvin movies reimagined loads of Trek lore - Earth is far more heavily built up than what we saw in TMP and other little glimpses throughout the years, the Klingons were changed, Khan is British and looking back it all fits fine if effects from Nero's incursion somehow wibbled further back before 2233 as well as ahead.

Discovery has no such in-universe excuse, unless you say it's what's left of the Prime Universe after the Temporal War in ENT. Stuff like the BTS info on the Klingons being bald because their ridges are sensors render the show totally incompatible with anything before, so I consider it a reboot. They recently tied directly into "In a Mirror, Darkly" but continue to pretend "Affliction"/"Divergeance" never happened which is quite bizarre.

YMMV, of course.
 
The explanation I've commonly seen is that the Prime Universe divergence means several major, future time travel events from times after the divergence to times before the divergence will not occur or may occur differently (e.g. City on the Edge of Forever, the Whale Probe incident, the Borg invasion of 2373), meaning the past of the Abramsverse may well be changed as well as its future.

I've heard that theory as well. Don't happen to agree with it.

As of 2233, both the Abrams and Prime timelines are possible futures. They just branch off, nothing more; the existence of one timeline doesn't wipe out the other (indeed, they even point that out in ST09). It's like you're driving on the interstate and decide whether or not to take an exit. Both roads still exist, no matter which one you actually take.

So characters from either timeline could travel back to a point before 2233 - and even meet each other. For example, as of ST09, Data's head is still underneath San Francisco...
 
ISo characters from either timeline could travel back to a point before 2233 - and even meet each other. For example, as of ST09, Data's head is still underneath San Francisco...

That is an interesting idea. If you go back in time, I wonder if you could accidentally go forward in to the wrong fork. Perhaps some clever quantum technobabble would prevent that, or perhaps when the universe forks you each get your own private copy of the history, in some sense.

Interesting that in Parallels in TNG we do actually see for sure that the many worlds interpretation of Quantum Theory is true, and that there are infinite forks in the road playing out different quantum possibilities. I wonder how this sort of universe decision forking relates to the Prime/Kevin/Mirror universes. Perhaps something for another thread!
 
I'm pretty sure the real-life reason they changed from "it was one timeline until 2233" to "wibby wobbly magic!" is because of DSC coming along, set roughly in the same era. It's very likely that they'll establish contradictory backstory for Trek characters and races, the kind of stuff which (like the San Francisco skyline or British Khan) don;t fit with a 2233 divergence date.

Although a fanfic where Spock, Guinan and Data's severed head solve crimes in the Kelvin universe would be the greatest thing ever.
 
DSC is not set in the Kelvin timeline.

(IIRC, Bad Robot has exclusive rights to any Kelvinverse material, so DSC couldn't be set there even if it wanted to.)

@Verteron - if a character from either the Prime or Kelvin timelines travels back to a point before the divergence, then returns, I think they would end up in whatever timeline they started from. @Christopher suggests something like this (in his Department of Temporal Investigations novels) in the form of a "Feynman curve".

The basic thrust of the gist is, a time traveller has to return by the same method they left. So, for example, the Bozeman in TNG's "Cause and Effect" can't use the slingshot method to return to 2278, because that's not how they left it. Similarly, the Enterprise-E in ST:FC was easily able to return to the present because they were following the same Feynman curve that got them to the past.
 
So the Kelvin and her crew just randomly popped into existence right before Nero came through the black hole?
Or a parallel universe, which I like.

But it's a interesting idea that Nero's emergence from the "portal" could be what created the universe, with a suddenly brought into existance complete back history.
But we never saw how the prime universe looked between the end of ENT (2161) and the year 2233, so we have nothing to base it on what looks "different" or not.
But that also means that we can't confirm that the look of the Abrams-universe is what Starfleet looked like at that time period in the prime universe
 
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