A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones Spoiler-Filled Discussion
- Thread starter Out Of My Vulcan Mind
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Would make a great Big Bang Theory episode.
They know some major aspects of the ending, yes, but I doubt they know enough to put together a decent TV version of the rest of the story, and I'm not at all sure they'd want to. Especially since, as was discussed the last time this came up, there are other options.
^^^ Oh, I dunno. Tywin's interactions with Arya At Harrenhal were complete fabrications unique to the TV version and they were exceptionally well done, I thought.
Screw other options, Martin wouldn't have told them things if he wasn't okay with them using the informaton. They don't have to know every detail, as long as they know what happens to the major characters and plotlines it's not hard to figure out a way to get them there. They are changing parts of the story anyway, so it doesn't make much of a difference.
I doubt he seriously considered the possibility one way or the other. He was giving them information to help with long-term planning, not a way to replace him.
I think you're overestimating what they know, and underestimating the complexity of the narrative. Sure, they could slap something together, but would it be satisfying as a resolution? If it comes down to "make something up or you're canceled," they might take a stab anyway. But I don't think that's going to happen.
The Arya/Tywin scenes are superficially well-crafted and amusing, but repetitive, and they undermine or displace the themes those characters are meant to reflect. Benioff and Weiss seem to think that Martin's less pleasant characters (Tywin, Cersei) need to be made "ambiguous" or "nuanced" by giving them heartwarming parental moments to balance out the nastiness; I don't find it at all convincing.
Tywin and Cersei loving people is straight out of the books, Tywin loved his wife, Cersei loves her children, it's not out of character to show them having nice moments with certain people. It's more interesting than Tywin just being a bastard and Cersei a raging, stupid bitch. The only true Lannister sociopath is Joffrey and the show is doing a great job portraying him.
And Deckerd, if you haven't seen the show, watch it now! It's not perfect (neither are the novels btw) but it's a great adaptation. Don't let a few people on a message board talking about stuff stop you from experiencing it, even if you don't like it, you should find out for yourself
And Deckerd, if you haven't seen the show, watch it now! It's not perfect (neither are the novels btw) but it's a great adaptation. Don't let a few people on a message board talking about stuff stop you from experiencing it, even if you don't like it, you should find out for yourself
Tywin loved Joanna, true. I also think he cared for Kevan.
I think he saw his children as his legacy and tried tirelessly to mold them into what he saw as best for the Lannister family. They were there to carry on what he had started, and he was most dismayed when they acted on their own.
I think he loved Jaime but was flabbergasted by what he saw as his son throwing away all that he had worked to give him.
Cersei was a girl and therefore did not really make a blip on her father's radar other than as a potential pawn.
He obviously loathed Tyrion for his form and "killing" Joanna.
I think the show did a good job of showing who Tywin is in those scenes with Arya. (I waffle on whether or not Arya as a character suffers as a result. She loses some of the "kill" scenes, and I am inclined to think that a good thing. Martin made her almost too bloody.)
Cersei for all her flaws did love her children, but her love blinded her and made her a terrible mother.
She never allowed herself to see what Joffrey was and then cannonized him on his death. She then used Joffrey's death to berate poor Tommen for not being like his brother. She thought of Joffrey was strong when he was really snivelling and deranged.
Kevan and even Jaime eventually had the same thought. Tommen would be better off removed from his mother's influence. Tommen is sensible and not unkind. He could be molded into a good leader.
Cersei learned few things from Tywin, but she learned only his hardest lessons. She saw how his cruelty won him certain things but never learned that too much cruelty and sheer spite can be as damaging as being too soft.
Even without the ear (Thank you Dark Star), Myrcella is far better off in Dorne.
In the show they have taken one of her earliest and most heinous offenses (Robert's illegimate childrens' deaths) and tacked it on to Joffrey. I don't blame them much for that, but Cersei's descent into madness is compelling in the books.
At least I thought she was going mad. I gave her much more credit for cunning and game playing before Martin let us in her head. Then she became this paranoid small creature. I am still not sure how I feel about that.
I think he saw his children as his legacy and tried tirelessly to mold them into what he saw as best for the Lannister family. They were there to carry on what he had started, and he was most dismayed when they acted on their own.
I think he loved Jaime but was flabbergasted by what he saw as his son throwing away all that he had worked to give him.
Cersei was a girl and therefore did not really make a blip on her father's radar other than as a potential pawn.
He obviously loathed Tyrion for his form and "killing" Joanna.
I think the show did a good job of showing who Tywin is in those scenes with Arya. (I waffle on whether or not Arya as a character suffers as a result. She loses some of the "kill" scenes, and I am inclined to think that a good thing. Martin made her almost too bloody.)
Cersei for all her flaws did love her children, but her love blinded her and made her a terrible mother.
She never allowed herself to see what Joffrey was and then cannonized him on his death. She then used Joffrey's death to berate poor Tommen for not being like his brother. She thought of Joffrey was strong when he was really snivelling and deranged.
Kevan and even Jaime eventually had the same thought. Tommen would be better off removed from his mother's influence. Tommen is sensible and not unkind. He could be molded into a good leader.
Cersei learned few things from Tywin, but she learned only his hardest lessons. She saw how his cruelty won him certain things but never learned that too much cruelty and sheer spite can be as damaging as being too soft.
Even without the ear (Thank you Dark Star), Myrcella is far better off in Dorne.
In the show they have taken one of her earliest and most heinous offenses (Robert's illegimate childrens' deaths) and tacked it on to Joffrey. I don't blame them much for that, but Cersei's descent into madness is compelling in the books.
At least I thought she was going mad. I gave her much more credit for cunning and game playing before Martin let us in her head. Then she became this paranoid small creature. I am still not sure how I feel about that.
She's not mad in the books. Nowhere near. She's just completely self-obsessed. Everyone else is suborned to her desire to have everything she wants. She wouldn't recognise love if it whacked her on the back of the head with a heavy plank. Her judgement and political acumen are non-existent so every decision she makes is a train wreck. Her lack of empathy with any other human (including Jaime) borders on autism. She's my second favourite character in all the books.
Do you think the whole Magi the Frog thing is not driving her a bit bonkers? I thought she was loosing it there at the end. I guess the next installment will be telling.
not mad just inept -
If there ever gets to be a point where the TV goes over Martin's writing while he's still writing... fuck that. I'd quit watching and avoid spoilers like the plague. If Martin dies, that's one thing. If Martin's in New Mexico toiling away at Book 7 while the TV series does its own ending... no. I want to experience this story ending through the books, not an adaptation. Not saying the producers shouldn't even do it; just that if they do, keep it away from me.
I'd say the first season is a very solid 9/10 that borders on 10/10 at times and, quibbles aside, is as good of an adaptation as you can imagine. The second season... is a lot more sketchy in quality, both as its own series and as an adaptation. Some elements, like Theon's ACoK arc, were adapted really well, even if they changed some things, while others, like Jon Snow's, they completely fucked up on.
The series is worth seeing, but it's really a cute novelty for me.
I love it! One of the best things about the series is how completely wrongfooted first impressions can be. A lot of people when they read A Game of Thrones are given this impression of Cersei as a master manipulator, which then confuses people at how the pure chance of circumstances allowed Cersei to get away with killing Robert. But as we see later, Cersei truly is a mental incompetent. Inside her head, it's insane how completely and utterly wrong she interrupts everything and everyone, making enemies out of allies while sucking up to (and sucking) enemies. She fascinates me but Livia she is not.
I'd say the first season is a very solid 9/10 that borders on 10/10 at times and, quibbles aside, is as good of an adaptation as you can imagine. The second season... is a lot more sketchy in quality, both as its own series and as an adaptation. Some elements, like Theon's ACoK arc, were adapted really well, even if they changed some things, while others, like Jon Snow's, they completely fucked up on.
The series is worth seeing, but it's really a cute novelty for me.
I love it! One of the best things about the series is how completely wrongfooted first impressions can be. A lot of people when they read A Game of Thrones are given this impression of Cersei as a master manipulator, which then confuses people at how the pure chance of circumstances allowed Cersei to get away with killing Robert. But as we see later, Cersei truly is a mental incompetent. Inside her head, it's insane how completely and utterly wrong she interrupts everything and everyone, making enemies out of allies while sucking up to (and sucking) enemies. She fascinates me but Livia she is not.
They were very good, not least of all because of the excellence of Charles Dance and Maisy Williams. But the scenes in the book between Arya and Roose Bolton might have been just as good had they been left there.
I understand why they had Roose Bolton be Robb's number two man in the season though (especially since the Greatjon actor left), to set him up as an adviser and ally, making "Jaime Lannister sends his regards"* all the more shocking. Of all my Season 2 complaints (and I have many), streamlining the story so Tywin met Arya at Harrenhal isn't one of them, even if it does go on for an episode too long (making Tywin leave Harrenhal at the same time Stannis is already on the sea to Blackwater Bay; by that time frame, Tywin arrived for the Battle of Blackwater in a RIDICULOUSLY short amount of time).
* I've listened to a couple audio book renditions of the Red Wedding and for some reason, NONE of the readers do "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" in the whispery voice of Bolton but instead shout it, even though the figure is wearing a pink cloak and Roose was actually told by Jaime Lannister to send his regards.
I did notice that the Tywin/Arya "my lord" vs "m'lord" scene was actually lifted from a later scene in the books. I think it was
either Littlefinger schooling Sansa how to act and sound low-born while posing as Alayne Stone, or the old man teaching Arya after she arrives at the House of Black & White. Can't remember which.
Neither, actually; it's Roose Bolton warning Theon in A Dance with Dragons. Ironically, Arya calls him "my lord" when she's his cupbearer in A Clash of Kings, and he doesn't notice.
On another topic, Martin announced today that the cross-genre anthology Dangerous Women has been completed. His contribution is not, as was expected, the fourth Dunk and Egg story, but "The Princess and the Queen," "fake history" about the origins of the Dance of the Dragons, the Targaryen civil war. This is presumably either a preview of The World of Ice and Fire or a deleted sequence from it.
On another topic, Martin announced today that the cross-genre anthology Dangerous Women has been completed. His contribution is not, as was expected, the fourth Dunk and Egg story, but "The Princess and the Queen," "fake history" about the origins of the Dance of the Dragons, the Targaryen civil war. This is presumably either a preview of The World of Ice and Fire or a deleted sequence from it.
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